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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7927072" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Ok, well, now I see at least where you are going there. </p><p></p><p>The problem I run into here is that to answer Bohandas question in the way I think is true is going to involve ascribing motives to people. And there is a limit to how far I think I can "get away" with that before you are going to red text me, especially considering how quickly you've leaped to accuse me of that in the thread. </p><p></p><p>So I can only address your challenge at a superficial level, and ask why is it that people are disposed to see orcs as close to ourselves on the basis of shape and not demons? Or why is it that they are more disposed to see orcs as more like us than ghouls, even though ghouls literally are us? Or basically, why has the conception of orcs in particular evolved to have more human traits than their origin as the evil twisted fairy minions of Satanic dark lords might suggest? In other places we've discussed how ghouls could be humanized into a species that was basically good and not monstrous, while still retaining ghoulish appearance and habits? Why didn't that catch on as a very common way to think about ghouls?</p><p></p><p>I've touched on one possible answer to that by looking at the humanization of Klingons in Star Trek, from their more simple conception as a proudly evil people. But, I didn't really explain the basic issue there - why was it when Klingons were humanized they were made more explicitly space orcs? I've also touched on this by noting that World of Warcraft, from it's origins in Warcraft, found itself needing to make humans and orcs peers, and so needed to humanize orcs. But to go much further than that is going to risk breaking board rules or turning the argument explosive and then getting it shut down.</p><p></p><p>Fundamentally, I have very little problems with humanizing orcs, provided that it's done in a fashion that doesn't equate them with real world racial groups (something I find distasteful). If you want orcs to be a species of people in your world, then that's just fine. I've done something similar with goblins myself, and I'm fully happy to discuss in detail how I choose to balance the personhood of individual goblins with the overtly monstrous nature of them as a species. One thing I certainly do not do is equate goblins with real world human racial groups, which I would find to be well, racist.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7927072, member: 4937"] Ok, well, now I see at least where you are going there. The problem I run into here is that to answer Bohandas question in the way I think is true is going to involve ascribing motives to people. And there is a limit to how far I think I can "get away" with that before you are going to red text me, especially considering how quickly you've leaped to accuse me of that in the thread. So I can only address your challenge at a superficial level, and ask why is it that people are disposed to see orcs as close to ourselves on the basis of shape and not demons? Or why is it that they are more disposed to see orcs as more like us than ghouls, even though ghouls literally are us? Or basically, why has the conception of orcs in particular evolved to have more human traits than their origin as the evil twisted fairy minions of Satanic dark lords might suggest? In other places we've discussed how ghouls could be humanized into a species that was basically good and not monstrous, while still retaining ghoulish appearance and habits? Why didn't that catch on as a very common way to think about ghouls? I've touched on one possible answer to that by looking at the humanization of Klingons in Star Trek, from their more simple conception as a proudly evil people. But, I didn't really explain the basic issue there - why was it when Klingons were humanized they were made more explicitly space orcs? I've also touched on this by noting that World of Warcraft, from it's origins in Warcraft, found itself needing to make humans and orcs peers, and so needed to humanize orcs. But to go much further than that is going to risk breaking board rules or turning the argument explosive and then getting it shut down. Fundamentally, I have very little problems with humanizing orcs, provided that it's done in a fashion that doesn't equate them with real world racial groups (something I find distasteful). If you want orcs to be a species of people in your world, then that's just fine. I've done something similar with goblins myself, and I'm fully happy to discuss in detail how I choose to balance the personhood of individual goblins with the overtly monstrous nature of them as a species. One thing I certainly do not do is equate goblins with real world human racial groups, which I would find to be well, racist. [/QUOTE]
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