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<blockquote data-quote="Iosue" data-source="post: 6616131" data-attributes="member: 6680772">Well, let us take our hypothetical fighter and his wizard twin brother, both with STR 16.&nbsp; If they are unarmed, the fighter gets proficiency on unarmed strike because it is a simple weapon, while the wizard is not.&nbsp; So to make it a fair playing field we have to go with quarterstaffs.&nbsp; Here the fighter and wizard are equal until level 4, when they get ability score improvements.&nbsp; The fighter puts his into STR, upping his to-hit, while the wizard goes with Intelli-what's that?&nbsp; The wizard is going to put his ability score improvement into STR, too?&nbsp; Well, okay, so now they are still the same until 6th level.&nbsp; The strong wizard kinda sucks as a wizard, and kinda sucks as a fighter, but he's keeping pace with accuracy, at least.&nbsp; At 6th level the fighter gets another ASI.&nbsp; Now he jumps into the lead with a maxed STR.&nbsp; And stays there...unless the wizard maxes his STR at Level 8.&nbsp; At which point, congratulations to the strongest wizard in the world, I guess?&nbsp; He makes contact with his limited proficient weapons as well as a fighter does on a single roll.&nbsp; The amount of damage per round he's inflicting is far, far less than the fighter is doing.&nbsp; Meanwhile the fighter is now using his five remaining ASI to max out DEX, so his accuracy with ranged weapons is just as good as with melee.Another way to look at it is that while the bonus may not differ for our weight-training wizard, from a pure probability standpoint, the fighter is increasing his probability to hit for the same damage as the melee wizard, or even more, with every action surge and extra-attack.&nbsp; The wizard takes his shot and misses -- his turn is done.&nbsp; The fighter takes his shot and misses -- his uses his second attack.&nbsp; That misses?&nbsp; He action surges.&nbsp; And so on.Blackbird71 -- I'm not unsympathetic to counterintuitiveness.&nbsp; I, too, had a similar &quot;Er?&quot; reaction during the playtest when they replaced the class specific Weapon Attack bonuses with proficiency.&nbsp; But it's something you've got to see in play.&nbsp; In theory, a wizard can have the same bonus.&nbsp; In practice, they hardly ever do, and even if they do, they are not nearly the melee combatants fighters are.&nbsp; When accuracy is bounded, HP go up for harder challenges, rather than AC.&nbsp; When HP is up, it's not what chance you have to hit, but how much damage you're going to do on your turn.&nbsp; Fighters are guaranteed to hit more and hit harder than virtually any other class.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Iosue, post: 6616131, member: 6680772"] Well, let us take our hypothetical fighter and his wizard twin brother, both with STR 16. If they are unarmed, the fighter gets proficiency on unarmed strike because it is a simple weapon, while the wizard is not. So to make it a fair playing field we have to go with quarterstaffs. Here the fighter and wizard are equal until level 4, when they get ability score improvements. The fighter puts his into STR, upping his to-hit, while the wizard goes with Intelli-what's that? The wizard is going to put his ability score improvement into STR, too? Well, okay, so now they are still the same until 6th level. The strong wizard kinda sucks as a wizard, and kinda sucks as a fighter, but he's keeping pace with accuracy, at least. At 6th level the fighter gets another ASI. Now he jumps into the lead with a maxed STR. And stays there...unless the wizard maxes his STR at Level 8. At which point, congratulations to the strongest wizard in the world, I guess? He makes contact with his limited proficient weapons as well as a fighter does on a single roll. The amount of damage per round he's inflicting is far, far less than the fighter is doing. Meanwhile the fighter is now using his five remaining ASI to max out DEX, so his accuracy with ranged weapons is just as good as with melee. Another way to look at it is that while the bonus may not differ for our weight-training wizard, from a pure probability standpoint, the fighter is increasing his probability to hit for the same damage as the melee wizard, or even more, with every action surge and extra-attack. The wizard takes his shot and misses -- his turn is done. The fighter takes his shot and misses -- his uses his second attack. That misses? He action surges. And so on. Blackbird71 -- I'm not unsympathetic to counterintuitiveness. I, too, had a similar "Er?" reaction during the playtest when they replaced the class specific Weapon Attack bonuses with proficiency. But it's something you've got to see in play. In theory, a wizard can have the same bonus. In practice, they hardly ever do, and even if they do, they are not [i]nearly[/i] the melee combatants fighters are. When accuracy is bounded, HP go up for harder challenges, rather than AC. When HP is up, it's not what chance you have to hit, but how much damage you're going to do on your turn. Fighters are guaranteed to hit more and hit harder than virtually any other class. [/QUOTE]

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