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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 9777861" data-attributes="member: 7023840">That's exactly right, and it goes back to the origins of the first schism in wagaming (which you alluded to) between Kriegsspiel and Free Kriegsspiel.Kriegsspiel was very much simulationist, but the three issues that kept arising were that it was too cumbersome (because it was so rules-heavy), it was hard to attract referees (because there were so many rules), and arguably it wasn't simulationist enough, because the rules couldn't cover all the realities of warfare.The proposed solution was Free Kriegsspiel, which replaced (wait for it) rules with rulings by an experiences referee (someone high up in the military). It solved the first two problems, and it was argued that it solved the third problem as well, because the referee could apply actual knowledge to the various situations as opposed to mechanistically applying a rule that did not adequately simulate what happened.FKR (Free Kriegsspiel Revolution) fans take that approach to TTRPGs, believing that you can actually have better simulationism (whether of game, world, or genre) through similar means- adherence to "invisible rulebooks" of a shared world/genre and rulings consistent with that, instead of complex rules.For purposes of this thread, I'd argue that a lot of the interesting modern sim games are actually rules lite and FKR games....but that brings up an interesting issue. Because I've noted in the past that there is ... difficulty ... at times distinguishing between iterations of rules lite games that people might argue are "simulationist" or "narrativist." (The ones that are more gamist tend to stand out with specific "win" conditions)Honestly ... a lot will depend on the intentionality of the table. One that are more geared to FKR generally tend to promote simulationist play, while rules lite games that encourage shared authority or narrative components tend to promote narrativist play.EDIT: TLDR .... complexity != simulation</blockquote>

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