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<blockquote data-quote="RenleyRenfield" data-source="post: 9779994" data-attributes="member: 7044197">I don't follow you here.&nbsp;&nbsp; In Infinity 2d20,&nbsp; there are all those same elements.&nbsp;&nbsp; It has armor rating, special penetration ammunition, strength values, and damage resistance and more.&nbsp; So there is no mechanical effect you mention that is not in 2d20 depending on the game chosen. Now, back to my point = Simulation is Simulation So if we are talking about &quot;watchmaking&quot; and people want to use the term &quot;Simulationist&quot; to mean &quot;how many elements of a given task are represented in the mechanics.&quot;&nbsp; Then we are really talking about how well a given rule represents the action at hand.&nbsp; And oddly enough, the more details systems, like GURPS, don't get any closer to representing reality than fully narrative ones.&nbsp; They just have more rules to describe it.&nbsp; A good example is hunting and survival.&nbsp; I hunt big game very year in the rocky mountains, i kill very big things with guns and bows, and i do it in winters that kill people every year and i do it at over 12,000 feet, miles and miles from civilization.&nbsp; No game that has lots of little rules for Survival or Hunting is even close to correct. GURPS and D&amp;D both are laughably wrong on how it really is.&nbsp; Oddly enough, for all their rules = they fail at simulating the real world effects. Sellsword Arts has done a great job at showing how both GURPS and D&amp;D are also incredibly wrong about how swords work.&nbsp; So what I was pointing out with Dune and Shadowdark is that some games get close to the mark, not by &quot;watchmaking&quot; but by paying attention to the results, the odds of results and the circumstances that create them.&nbsp; As well, Dune show us that &quot;simulation&quot; does not start and end with Strength and ballistics penetration.&nbsp; It shows us that Simulation can apply to Politics, Intrigue and even large scale war.But if we ARE just talking about &quot;watchmaking&quot; then, fine.&nbsp; I will shush..&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> </blockquote>

[QUOTE="RenleyRenfield, post: 9779994, member: 7044197"] I don't follow you here. In Infinity 2d20, there are all those same elements. It has armor rating, special penetration ammunition, strength values, and damage resistance and more. So t[B]here is no mechanical effect you mention that is not in 2d20 depending on the game chosen[/B]. Now, [B]back to my point = Simulation[I] is[/I] Simulation[/B] So if we are talking about "[B]watchmaking[/B]" and people want to use the term "Simulationist" to mean "how many elements of a given task are represented in the mechanics." Then we are really talking about how well a given rule represents the action at hand. And oddly enough, the more details systems, like GURPS, don't get any closer to representing reality than fully narrative ones. They just have more rules to describe it. A good [B]example is hunting and survival[/B]. I hunt big game very year in the rocky mountains, i kill very big things with guns and bows, and i do it in winters that kill people every year and i do it at over 12,000 feet, miles and miles from civilization. No game that has lots of little rules for Survival or Hunting is even close to correct. [B] GURPS and D&D both are laughably wrong on how it really is[/B]. Oddly enough, for all their rules = they fail at simulating the real world effects. [B] Sellsword Arts has done a great job at showing how both GURPS and D&D are also incredibly wrong about how swords work[/B]. So what I was pointing out with Dune and Shadowdark is that some games get close to the mark, not by "watchmaking" but by paying attention to the results, the odds of results and the circumstances that create them. As well, [B]Dune show us that "simulation" does not start and end with Strength and ballistics penetration[/B]. It shows us that Simulation can apply to Politics, Intrigue and even large scale war. [B]But if we ARE just talking about "watchmaking" then, fine. I will shush.. :) [/B] [/QUOTE]

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