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<blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 460158" data-attributes="member: 3051">Yeah, that errata really screwed up the balance of my version.&nbsp; Plus, a lot of people seem to play with a rule that Polymorph Other isn't permanent, just 1 hour/level.&nbsp; So, you'll have to adjust to your campaign.By adding the uncertainty, I don't think it's broken to let people change forms any more with Polymorph Self, so I used every part of the errata except that limitation.&nbsp; Let's crunch some numbers.Bob the Transmuter wants to turn into some animals.&nbsp; The DM rules that the only forms he's &quot;very familiar&quot; with are Human (he is one), Elf and Dwarf (his party), and toad (his familiar), because they're the only form he sees up close on a constant basis. For &quot;Studied Carefully&quot;, most of the common creatures.&nbsp; He had a dog growing up, he sees songbirds every day from a distance, horses, cows, that sort of thing.&nbsp; He's fought Orcs, and been around most of the humanoid races.&nbsp; &quot;Seen Casually&quot; covers most of the uncommon creatures; eagles in the distance, for example, or the more common monsters like Trolls.&nbsp; &quot;Viewed Once&quot;: well, he once saw a dragon.&nbsp; &quot;Description&quot;: he's never seen an Umber Hulk.Okay, so let's say Bob wants to go Human-eagle-horse-Troll-Umber Hulk.&nbsp; Turning into an eagle, he has an 88% chance of success with a 2% chance of Mishap.&nbsp; To horse, he has a 94% chance of success with a 1% chance of Mishap.&nbsp; To troll, 88% success, 2% Mishap.&nbsp; To Umber Hulk, 52% chance of success, 8% Mishap.So, he has only a 73% chance of getting to Troll in the first place, and about a 4% chance of being stuck in a really nasty form instead.&nbsp; He only has a 38% chance of getting to Umber Hulk, and now his chance of mishap are around 10%.&nbsp; With these sort of odds, and the fact that changing forms is a full-round action, it's not something he'd do lightly, and it doesn't end up superior to wildshape.Part of the key is how the DM rules things.&nbsp; Most of the powerful forms would be in the &quot;Viewed Once&quot; category, because it's not something you'd see from day to day.&nbsp; For rare/hostile creatures, only give them a good category if they spend in-game time researching the creatures, and even then limit it to specific forms.Oh, and I forgot two other notes: 1&gt; If you're using Polymorph Other to make an ally stronger (if the target form has a higher CR than the original OR if the target forgoes their saving throw), subtract CRs on bad rolls just like for Polymorph Self.2&gt; When using the spell to gain a bonus to Disguise rolls, you only get the bonus for an On-Target roll.&nbsp; Anything else and you get something warped to the point where everyone knows it's not right.For example, if you were trying for a Stone Giant and got Off Target, I said you'd be a Hill Giant.&nbsp; You'd actually be something with the STATS of a Hill Giant, that looked like a warped Stone Giant.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Spatzimaus, post: 460158, member: 3051"] Yeah, that errata really screwed up the balance of my version. Plus, a lot of people seem to play with a rule that Polymorph Other isn't permanent, just 1 hour/level. So, you'll have to adjust to your campaign. By adding the uncertainty, I don't think it's broken to let people change forms any more with Polymorph Self, so I used every part of the errata except that limitation. Let's crunch some numbers. Bob the Transmuter wants to turn into some animals. The DM rules that the only forms he's "very familiar" with are Human (he is one), Elf and Dwarf (his party), and toad (his familiar), because they're the only form he sees up close on a constant basis. For "Studied Carefully", most of the common creatures. He had a dog growing up, he sees songbirds every day from a distance, horses, cows, that sort of thing. He's fought Orcs, and been around most of the humanoid races. "Seen Casually" covers most of the uncommon creatures; eagles in the distance, for example, or the more common monsters like Trolls. "Viewed Once": well, he once saw a dragon. "Description": he's never seen an Umber Hulk. Okay, so let's say Bob wants to go Human-eagle-horse-Troll-Umber Hulk. Turning into an eagle, he has an 88% chance of success with a 2% chance of Mishap. To horse, he has a 94% chance of success with a 1% chance of Mishap. To troll, 88% success, 2% Mishap. To Umber Hulk, 52% chance of success, 8% Mishap. So, he has only a 73% chance of getting to Troll in the first place, and about a 4% chance of being stuck in a really nasty form instead. He only has a 38% chance of getting to Umber Hulk, and now his chance of mishap are around 10%. With these sort of odds, and the fact that changing forms is a full-round action, it's not something he'd do lightly, and it doesn't end up superior to wildshape. Part of the key is how the DM rules things. Most of the powerful forms would be in the "Viewed Once" category, because it's not something you'd see from day to day. For rare/hostile creatures, only give them a good category if they spend in-game time researching the creatures, and even then limit it to specific forms. Oh, and I forgot two other notes: 1> If you're using Polymorph Other to make an ally stronger (if the target form has a higher CR than the original OR if the target forgoes their saving throw), subtract CRs on bad rolls just like for Polymorph Self. 2> When using the spell to gain a bonus to Disguise rolls, you only get the bonus for an On-Target roll. Anything else and you get something warped to the point where everyone knows it's not right. For example, if you were trying for a Stone Giant and got Off Target, I said you'd be a Hill Giant. You'd actually be something with the STATS of a Hill Giant, that looked like a warped Stone Giant. [/QUOTE]

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