Converting 3.5e back to 3e

[shadow]

I mainly play with people who refuse to switch to 3.5e. In fact they want nothing to do with 3.5e! Since every d20 product written since June has been written for 3.5e, this leaves me with the uncomfortable task of converting everything if I want to use any newer product. I recently traded in some books and brought the Dawnforge Campaign setting. I haven't read through it thoroughly yet, but it looks awesome. However, I have the difficulty of converting it back to 3e before using it.

Some of conversions will be pretty simple such as changing feat and skill names. Others are more difficult such as classes, spells, and monsters. Is there anywhere I could find good advice on the differences between the editions, and perhaps away to convert between the two?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Really, I think you can use 3.5 prestige classes and monsters (changing DR) without any trouble in 3.0. What problems have you found in integrating the two editions?

 

[shadow]

What problems have you found in integrating the two editions?

Although, much of 3.5e doesn't take a lot of work to convert, there are several problem areas.

1. Spells: 3.5e changed almost all the spells. Many spells changed levels making it difficult to convert spell casting characters.

2. Monsters - specifically, monsters with DR. DR was changed in 3.5e, and I'm not really sure how to deal with it. Moreover, since 3.5e monsters are on average tougher than their 3e counterparts, how do I adjust DC?

3. Class abilities and skills - since a number of skills have been folded into Survival, what do I do to characters and PrCs that have ranks in the Survival skill. Also what about classes? Many of the classes have changed significantly. (Especially the ranger) This makes conversion somewhat of a problem with many classes. A 5th level ranger in 3.5e is completely different from a 5th level ranger in 3e in terms of power, skills, and abilities.

I would appreciate any help on "backwards" conversion

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm not really sure why 1 and 3 are problems. How often do you convert *characters* from 3.5 to 3.0? Monsters, classes, and feats I can see -- but whence characters?

Are you converting 3.5 adventures, or what?

2. Monsters - specifically, monsters with DR. DR was changed in 3.5e, and I'm not really sure how to deal with it. Moreover, since 3.5e monsters are on average tougher than their 3e counterparts, how do I adjust DC?

As a rule of thumb, you could change DR X/(whatever) to DR 2X/(see chart):
Monster's CR....DR type
1....................silver or +1
2-4.................+1
5-8.................+2
9-11...............+3
12-15.............+4
16-20.............+5

So a CR 14 monster with DR 5/adamantine could be converted to DR 10/+4.

Admittedly it could be better -- other materials could have special conversion functions. For example, DR X/adamantine could convert to DR 5X/(see chart), since they tend to have high values in 3.0.

 

[Turjan]

As a GM, I wouldn't be bothered to change anything except those DR's, and maybe one or the other spell duration. Or do your players write down each of your moves and try to reconstruct your baddies? As a rule of thumb, I still believe that a 3.5e level 5 NPC is about as powerful as a 3.0 level 5 NPC. Your NPC's can always have some peculiar prestige classes .

 

[Li Shenron]

1. Spells: 3.5e changed almost all the spells. Many spells changed levels making it difficult to convert spell casting characters

This is tough. If you have really many spellcasting NPCs, it could become a burden. Anyway, if you are the DM, remember that you should not let the players read the NPC statistics: this gives you the chance of not fully convert an NPC (or make mistakes ) without them noticing. I don't think there are spells changed of more than 1 level, and even those are not so many, but if the NPC casts a spell at a "wrong" level, how are the players going to notice, if they don't even know what is the NPC class level?

2. Monsters - specifically, monsters with DR. DR was changed in 3.5e, and I'm not really sure how to deal with it. Moreover, since 3.5e monsters are on average tougher than their 3e counterparts, how do I adjust DC?

The rules-of-thumb suggested can help you with this. If the 3.5 monster has DR X/Magic, then it is simply converted to X/+1.

As a simpler but rough option, you may consider to simply increase by 5/+1 the final DR for every alignment required to bypass it and by 5/+2 for every special material (which is harder to get), such as changing DR 10/Magic & Evil & Cold Iron into DR 20/+4 (+1 for Magic, another +1 for Evil, another +2 for Cold Iron).

3. Class abilities and skills - since a number of skills have been folded into Survival, what do I do to characters and PrCs that have ranks in the Survival skill. Also what about classes? Many of the classes have changed significantly. (Especially the ranger) This makes conversion somewhat of a problem with many classes. A 5th level ranger in 3.5e is completely different from a 5th level ranger in 3e in terms of power, skills, and abilities.

Skills shouldn't be a problem: whenever a Survival rank is required you just substitute Wilderness Lore; if a bonus is given to Survival, you may give it to Intuit Direction as well as Wilderness Lore. It is more difficult to adapt 3.0 skills to 3.5 that the other way around, IMHO.

Classes are a different thing: the 3.5 versions always have something more, and to take it away is more difficult than to add something. Just as an example, almost every class has more class skills and a couple of classes also have more skill points, therefore a written NPC may have higher ranks in something when he wouldn't have in 3.0, and if there are synergy bonuses it becomes a pain to change it back. But the point is... is it worth to convert every detail? How is a single extra skill of an NPC going to affect the game?

Class features are quite modular and shouldn't pose a serious threat if they moved up or down a class level. You may simply want to check by class, but it won't be hard. Rangers are of course completely different, and in that only case it could be easier to rewrite the NPC from scratch. If you anyway use custom classes or feats from non-core sources, you could even simply keep an NPC Ranger in his 3.5 form without expecting complaints from your audience.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

1. Spells: 3.5e changed almost all the spells. Many spells changed levels making it difficult to convert spell casting characters.

2. Monsters - specifically, monsters with DR. DR was changed in 3.5e, and I'm not really sure how to deal with it. Moreover, since 3.5e monsters are on average tougher than their 3e counterparts, how do I adjust DC?

3. Class abilities and skills - since a number of skills have been folded into Survival, what do I do to characters and PrCs that have ranks in the Survival skill. Also what about classes? Many of the classes have changed significantly. (Especially the ranger) This makes conversion somewhat of a problem with many classes. A 5th level ranger in 3.5e is completely different from a 5th level ranger in 3e in terms of power, skills, and abilities.

I would appreciate any help on "backwards" conversion

The main thing to remember is the "Intent" of the writers and everything will go much more smoothly. If a creature or NPC is written up with a particular spell but by 3.0 rules they shouldn't have it then either make it a spell like ability or give them an item that allows them to cast it. If your players cry foul then remind them that there doesn't always have to be an explanation.

As far as your Survival/Wilderness Lore problem goes, give them equal skill ratings in each. Once again, it is the intent of the writer that the Ranger will be good at Tracking AND Survival.

For Monsters really your best bet is going to be to track down a Monster Manual for 3.0 which shouldn't be too hard and you will probably pick it up pretty cheap. Remembering the intent will help you here again though for monsters that aren't in the MM. Run the DR the way it is intended for 3.5 and just let your players deal with it.

Remember... Intent, Intent, Intent

 

[Janx]

As some other people mentioned, why convert?

3.0 is pretty much the same thing as 3.5 when it comes to the rules. it's some of the names, and values changed.

So run the 3.5 critters as they are (heck, I started playing A&D2e with a GM who only owned the AD&D1e monster manual).

Run your 3.5 rangers as they are

Use the new heal/harm spell as they are in 3.5 (if the players ask, its a variant...)

What you may want to do is study the various docs (enworld hosted a few) that cover the changes and make a house rules document that takes the best of those changes and adds it to the 3.0 rules. That's well within a DM's authority and would likely fix the game anyway. Some good suggestions (I'm doing the same thing...) are: Haste/Heal/harm spells rewritten. Ranger and Bard class rewritten (they were the most sucky of the originals). Any other suggested "top" rules changes?

Janx

 

[Plane Sailing]

Regarding skills that are folded into other skills.... do you really think that intuit direction and read lips will see enough use to make it worth unfolding them from other skills?

And if they won't use the 3.5e jump rules they are just barmy!

 

[Remathilis]

My simple fixes for "gasp" going back...

1.) New spells shouldn't be a problem, just place them where they would be anyway. NPC spellcasters should replace spells that are changed with spells that are in the 3.0 PH. (IE, Replacing Good Hope with Emotion). If the spell is out of a character's reach, consider adding a scroll/wand.

2.) Skills: Rename Sleight of Hand, Craft Alchemy, Survival. Remove any synergy from Knowledge skills (watch for bard know and turn checks w/synergy!). Apply ranks in unused skills (scry, read lips, intuit direction) at a rate of 1/4 or as needed. Add up perform ranks from all perform skills (up to max ranks), add more performances as needed. Watch for paladins with sense motive and sorcerers with bluff, apply the cross class max to each.

3.) Class Abilities: New classes are no problem. Old Classes just strip out new abilities or re-arrange them as needed. Remember to cut 2 SP/level from bards and rangers (remove two skills on average). Rangers should go up 2 + 1 every level in hit points.

4.) Feats: Cut the majority of +2/+2 feats (they sound like adjectives), give TWFers ambidexterity, and choose what weapon they are finessed in if necessary. Run all feats in 3.0 mode.

5.) Monsters. Ignore trying to convert these back, except for the following:
DR: My simple number chart

HD DR
1-3 ---
4-7 DR 5/+1
8-11 DR 10/+2
12-15 DR 15/+3
16-19 DR 20/+4
21+ DR 20 OR 25/+5

Creatures with DR /Silver use that as the first entry and knock all others back. Ignore Fey DR under 9 HD (but use the above chart for those over). Ignore Alignment DR all togehter. DR /Adamanantine should Be DR +3 minimum. DR /Epic is a +6 weapon, and usually 25 OR 30/+6 or +7. Tinker as you like.

Watch for spell-like abilities that don't exist, and use the 3.0 MM whenever possible.

The only reason I see them being anti- 3.5 at this point is that they don't want to shell out for new books. Remind them the SRD is free online and that hardcopies are cheap on amazon.com or half.com.