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<blockquote data-quote="Cleon" data-source="post: 6698736" data-attributes="member: 57383">Okay, basically I'm suggesting we remove the base creature's size modifier for Strength and substitute the base construct's size modifier to Strength.If we assume the base construct is Huge size, this means the Juggernaut has &quot;base creature's strength plus X minus base creature's size modifier to strength&quot;, where X includes the +16 size modifier for being Huge plus an additional modifier for the base type of Juggernaut - Wood, Stone, et cetera.So, if you have a Small base creature (-4 size modifier to Strength) piloting a Huge base construct (+16 size modifier to Strength), the resulting juggernaut would have the base creature's strength and a +20 size adjustment plus an additional tweak due to material (so a Stone Juggernaut might have, say, +6 on top of that and a Wicker Juggernaut could have -4).Contrariwise, a Large base creature (+8 size modifier to Strength) piloting the same Huge construct (+16 size modifier) would have a +8 overall size adjustment to Strength.I'm thinking that after explaining this in the Ability line we'd include a &quot;Juggernaut Ability Table&quot; similar to the one we used for the Mystaran Gargantua, for ease of reference.For example, if a typical Wooden Juggernaut grants a +18 Strength bonus to Medium-sized pilot, the table might look something like:Juggernaut Strength Modifier Table<table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>Base Creature</td></tr><tr><td>[TABLE=&quot;width: 80&quot;] [TR] [TD]Size</td></tr><tr><td>Fine[+28]</td></tr><tr><td>Diminutive[+26]</td></tr><tr><td>Tiny[+24]</td></tr><tr><td>Small[+20]</td></tr><tr><td>Medium[+16]</td></tr><tr><td>Large[+8]</td></tr></table> [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]
Type of Juggernaut 

[/TD] [/TD] [TD][TABLE=&quot;width: 300&quot;] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Stone[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Wicker[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Winged[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Wooden[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +30[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +28[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +26[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +22[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +18[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +X[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +10[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hmm... upon reflection I'm not sure about the idea of halfling-powered Juggernauts having higher strengths than human-powered ones due to the size differential.How would it work if a base creature with a size penalty didn't apply it? (e.g. if it was &quot;&quot;base creature's strength plus X minus base creature's size bonus to strength&quot;)Let's see, that would be something like...Juggernaut Size Modifier Table<table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>Base Creature</td></tr><tr><td>[TABLE=&quot;width: 80&quot;] [TR] [TD]Size</td></tr><tr><td>Fine[n/a]</td></tr><tr><td>Diminutive[n/a]</td></tr><tr><td>Tiny[n/a]</td></tr><tr><td>Small[n/a]</td></tr><tr><td>Medium[+0]</td></tr><tr><td>Large[+8]</td></tr><tr><td>Huge[+16]</td></tr><tr><td>Gargantuan[+24]</td></tr><tr><td>Colossal[+32]</td></tr></table> [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]
Juggernaut Size 

[/TD] [/TD] [TD][TABLE=&quot;width: 400&quot;] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Medium[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Large[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Huge[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Gargantuan[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Colossal[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +0[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +24[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +0[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +24[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +0[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +24[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +0[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +24[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +24[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +24[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]&nbsp;&nbsp; Nah, don't like that. I prefer the &quot;both bonus and penalty&quot; model, which in generic form would be something like:Juggernaut Size Modifier Table<table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>Base Creature</td></tr><tr><td>[TABLE=&quot;width: 80&quot;] [TR] [TD]Size</td></tr><tr><td>Fine[-12]</td></tr><tr><td>Diminutive[-10]</td></tr><tr><td>Tiny[-8]</td></tr><tr><td>Small[-4]</td></tr><tr><td>Medium[+0]</td></tr><tr><td>Large[+8]</td></tr><tr><td>Huge[+16]</td></tr><tr><td>Gargantuan[+24]</td></tr><tr><td>Colossal[+32]</td></tr></table> [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]
Juggernaut Size* 

[/TD] [/TD] [TD][TABLE=&quot;width: 400&quot;] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Medium[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Large[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Huge[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Gargantuan[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Colossal[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +12[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +20[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +28[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +36[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +44[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +10[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +18[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +26[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +34[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +42[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +24[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +32[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +40[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +4[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +12[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +20[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +28[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +36[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +24[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +24[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +16[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]Str +8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [TD=&quot;align: center&quot;]n/a[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]&nbsp; &nbsp; * Add +X for Stone, +Y for Wood or Winged, +Z for Wicker[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]&nbsp; Yeah, that kind of approach works for me.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cleon, post: 6698736, member: 57383"] Okay, basically I'm suggesting we remove the base creature's size modifier for Strength and substitute the base construct's size modifier to Strength. If we assume the base construct is Huge size, this means the Juggernaut has "base creature's strength plus X minus base creature's size modifier to strength", where X includes the +16 size modifier for being Huge plus an additional modifier for the base type of Juggernaut - Wood, Stone, [I]et cetera[/I]. So, if you have a Small base creature (-4 size modifier to Strength) piloting a Huge base construct (+16 size modifier to Strength), the resulting juggernaut would have the base creature's strength and a +20 size adjustment plus an additional tweak due to material (so a Stone Juggernaut might have, say, +6 on top of that and a Wicker Juggernaut could have -4). Contrariwise, a Large base creature (+8 size modifier to Strength) piloting the same Huge construct (+16 size modifier) would have a +8 overall size adjustment to Strength. I'm thinking that after explaining this in the Ability line we'd include a "Juggernaut Ability Table" similar to the one we used for the Mystaran Gargantua, for ease of reference. For example, if a typical Wooden Juggernaut grants a +18 Strength bonus to Medium-sized pilot, the table might look something like: [B][SIZE=3]Juggernaut Strength Modifier Table[/SIZE][/B] [TABLE] [TR] [TD][B]Base Creature[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]Type of Juggernaut [/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][TABLE="width: 80"] [TR] [TD][B]Size[/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Fine[+28][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Diminutive[+26][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Tiny[+24][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Small[+20][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Medium[+16][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Large[+8][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [TD][TABLE="width: 300"] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]Stone[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]Wicker[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]Winged[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]Wooden[/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +30[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +28[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +26[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +22[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +18[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +X[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +10[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Hmm... upon reflection I'm not sure about the idea of halfling-powered Juggernauts having higher strengths than human-powered ones due to the size differential. How would it work if a base creature with a size penalty didn't apply it? (e.g. if it was ""base creature's strength plus X minus base creature's size [U][B]bonus[/B][/U] to strength") Let's see, that would be something like... [B][SIZE=3]Juggernaut Size Modifier Table[/SIZE][/B] [TABLE] [TR] [TD][B]Base Creature[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]Juggernaut Size [/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][TABLE="width: 80"] [TR] [TD][B]Size[/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Fine[[COLOR=#ff0000]n/a[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Diminutive[[COLOR=#ff0000]n/a[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Tiny[[COLOR=#ff0000]n/a[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Small[[COLOR=#ff0000]n/a[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Medium[[COLOR=#ff0000]+0[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Large[[COLOR=#ff0000]+8[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Huge[[COLOR=#ff0000]+16[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Gargantuan[[COLOR=#ff0000]+24[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Colossal[[COLOR=#ff0000]+32[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [TD][TABLE="width: 400"] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Medium[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Large[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Huge[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Gargantuan[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Colossal[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +24[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +24[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +24[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +24[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +24[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +24[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Nah, don't like that. I prefer the "both bonus and penalty" model, which in generic form would be something like: [B][SIZE=3]Juggernaut Size Modifier Table[/SIZE][/B] [TABLE] [TR] [TD][B]Base Creature[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]Juggernaut Size* [/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][TABLE="width: 80"] [TR] [TD][B]Size[/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Fine[[COLOR=#ff0000]-12[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Diminutive[[COLOR=#ff0000]-10[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Tiny[[COLOR=#ff0000]-8[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Small[[COLOR=#ff0000]-4[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Medium[[COLOR=#ff0000]+0[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Large[[COLOR=#ff0000]+8[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Huge[[COLOR=#ff0000]+16[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Gargantuan[[COLOR=#ff0000]+24[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Colossal[[COLOR=#ff0000]+32[/COLOR]][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [TD][TABLE="width: 400"] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Medium[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Large[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Huge[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Gargantuan[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Colossal[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +12[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +20[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +28[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +36[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +44[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +10[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +18[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +26[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +34[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +42[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +24[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +32[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +40[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]Str +4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +12[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +20[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +28[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +36[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +24[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +32[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +24[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +16[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]Str +8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [TD="align: center"]n/a[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] * Add +X for Stone, +Y for Wood or Winged, +Z for Wicker[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Yeah, that kind of approach works for me. [/QUOTE]

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