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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cleon" data-source="post: 8303843" data-attributes="member: 57383">Updating the <a href="https://enworld.org/index.php?posts/8061974" target="_blank">Desert Giant Working Draft</a>.Unsurprisingly I agree with Challenge Rating 7 for the basic desert giant, but CR 8 is too low for a sand-shifter.Consider, each of the petrified ancestors is CR 7 and on average a sand-shifter can summon four of them. On paper that's five CR 7 opponents which the Encounter Number table says is Encounter Level 12!  However, since the sand-shifter is the "load bearing boss" who maintains the ancestor's presence on this plane, knocking them out will cause the four sand-shifted opponents to vanish.  I'd eyeball it as around Encounter Level 10.So maybe we should make it Encounter Number based?Let's see, if we assume that "vanishing when the sand-shifter falls" is worth a -1 Encounter Level Adjustment, then the standard Encounter Numbers table would expand to something like:<table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>Encounter Level (including sand-shifter)</td><td>Summoned Creatures</td></tr><tr><td>EL 7</td><td>1 petrified ancestor or 5-6 stony steed</td></tr><tr><td>EL 8</td><td>2 petrified ancestors or 7-9 stony steeds</td></tr><tr><td>EL 9</td><td>3 petrified ancestors or 10-12 stony steeds</td></tr><tr><td>EL 10</td><td>4 petrified ancestors or 13-18 stony steeds*</td></tr><tr><td>EL 11</td><td>5 or 6 petrified ancestors or 19-24 stony steeds*</td></tr></table>* The  encounter numbers table maxes out at 10-12, since mobs of low CR opponents are pretty worthless in 3.5 edition.So I think I'd add the following to the Sand-Shifters entry…Sand-Shifter Encounters: An adult sand-shifter is Challenge Rating 7 and an immature sand-shifter is Challenge Rating 5 (or CR 4 if Medium sized). If the sand-shifter has used sand-shifting its Encounter Level increases depending on how many creatures it summons: EL 8 for two petrified ancestors, 9 stony steeds, or one ancestor plus 5-6 steeds; EL 9 for three petrified ancestors, 10-12 stony steeds, two ancestors plus 5-6 steeds, or one ancestor plus 7–12 steeds; EL 10 for four petrified ancestors, 13-18 stony steeds, three ancestors plus 5-6 steeds, or two ancestor plus 7-12 steeds; and finally EL 11 for five or six petrified ancestors, 19-24 stony steeds, or three ancestors plus 7-12 steeds.No, I think that's too messy. I can make that simpler.How's this:Sand-Shifter Encounter Groups: An adult sand-shifter is Challenge Rating 7 while immature sand-shifters are CR 5 (Large) or CR 4 (Medium).If a sand-shifter has summoned creatures to the desert giant's aid, include the petrified ancestors and stony steeds when calculating a group's Encounter Numbers (i.e. three desert giants plus four petrified ancestors is seven CR 7 creatures for an Encounter Level of 13). Impose a –1 or –2 penalty to the EL if there's a significant proportion of petrified ancestors and stony steeds and the sand-shifter is part of the encounter, since the shifting-sand creatures will vanish if their summoner loses consciousness. For example, a CR 7 desert giant plus a CR 5 immature sand-shifter and ten to twelve CR 3 stony steeds calculates to EL 11 but is effectively EL 9.Challenge Rating: 7 (also see Sand-Shifter Encounter Groups)Why 14 ranks in Listen and Spot?Consider the Stone Giant, which seems the closest SRD giant to our boy. They have Climb +11, Hide +6*, Jump +11, Spot +12 with a +8 racial on the Hide. It doesn't even have any ranks in Listen!  Even the Hill Giant has Listen (the SRD's Hillie has Climb +7, Jump +7, Listen +3, Spot +6 as skills).Let's see how the Skill Ranks work out for those two:Hill (12 HD): Climb +7 [+7Str –3Hide], Jump +7 [+7Str –3Hide], Listen +3 [+0Wis], Spot +6 [+0Wis]15 Skill Points: Climb 3 SP, Jump 3 SP, Listen 3 SP, Spot 6 SPStone (13 HD): Climb +11 [+8Str –3Hide], Hide +6* (+14 rocky terrain) [+2Dex –3Hide –4size], Jump +11 [+8Str –3Hide], Spot +12[+1Wis]34 Skill Points: Climb 6 SP, Hide 11 SP, Jump 6 SP, Spot 11 SPOK, I agree on giving them Hide, Ride and Spot but Listen seems a low-priority skill comparable to, say, Handle Animal or Survival.  How about we give them similar Hide and Spot skill level as the Stone Giant and divide out the remainders between Handle Animal, Listen, Ride or Survival?  We'll want Ride to be at least +9 so it can auto-succeed on DC 10 "fight with warhorse" checks……Hmm, I tried some numbers and we just don't have the SPs for all of those skills at a reasonable number of ranks so we'll have to trim some of them down to low numbers.Maybe something like:Desert (13 HD): Hide +2* (+6 in desert, +16 with camouflage) [+1Dex –4size](+4Racial), Handle Animal +3 [+0Cha], Listen +3 [+0Wis], Ride +9 [+1Dex], Spot +10 [+0Wis], Survival +3 [+0Wis]32 Skill Points: Hide 5 SP, Handle Animal 3 SP, Listen 3 SP, Ride 8 SP, Spot 10 SP, Survival 3 SPfor…Skills: Hide +2* (+6 in desert, +16 with camouflage), Handle Animal +3, Listen +3, Ride +9, Spot +10, Survival +3Those are fine, except I'd prefer Point Blank Shot over Cleave.For comparison:Hill: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub)Stone: Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise ShotDesert (Cleon Version): Power Attack, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot</blockquote>

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