Converting Iron Heroes

[Brother Richard]

I am aware of the appendix in Iron Heroes of how to convert it, but I am looking for putting more Iron Heroes into games. Right now I would like to have Iron Heroes classes and skill chains with no Iron Heroes feats. Would that be balanced if I removed all non-casting classes? I thank you in advanced for helping.

 

[Thaniel]

Iron Heroes classes are made to fit the Iron Heroes feat chains. I can't imagine separating them, nor why you would want to. [shrug]

 

[Sir Brennen]

Yah, Iron Heroes classes can't really be converted to "regular" D&D classes, as they are very dependent on the core mechanics IH introduces beyond regular D&D (tokens, feat chains).

Also, if you allowed, for instance, a regular ranger or rogue in the same game, they'll be horribly underpowered against a IH character. IH classes are built assuming no magical equipment (or even buff spells from spellcasters). If you don't hand out magical items, the regular classes equipment, they'll be underpowered. If you do give out magical items, they'd stack with the IH class abilities, and again, the regular classes get the shaft. If regular classes get magic but the IH ones don't ... that might be balanced, but seems unfair and "meta-gamey".

It's actually a lot easier to bring regular D&D into IH than the other way around. Monsters, for instance, require almost no change at all.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Right now I would like to have Iron Heroes classes and skill chains with no Iron Heroes feats.

By skill chains I will assume you mean skill groups. No, this will not create balance problems, since all PCs will become more skillful.
By no Iron Heroes feats do you mean using D&D feats only or not having feats that are in Iron Heroes, regardless of their form? If the latter then no one would have power attack, cleave, great cleave, combat expertise, or just about any non-magic PHB feat. So I shall assume that you won't consider such a drastic step and shall instead simply use only D&D feats.
Much of the coolness and power of the classes will disappear, especially if you convert IH hit dice and saves to D&D equivalents, reduce feat acquisition to normal D&D rates and slow down token generation as recommended in the conversion guidelines. On the other hand, the classes would become balanced against all the magic bling in the setting, removing that concern.

You will lose one of the priciple advantages of Iron Heroes, though, in that there will actually be bad fighting styles again. One of the beautiful things about IH is that with the right selection of feats, every single fighting style is equally viable no matter what weapon is chosen. Darts, shuriken, clubs, tridents, nets and quarterstaffs are just as deadly, or even deadlier, than greatswords or two shortswords as long as the character invests some feats into acquiring that deadliness; by removing those feats you will make all those styles sucktastic, again.

I gather that your intention is to replace all the non-casters in D&D with IH classes and keep your D&D caster classes. It can work, quite well even, but you'll need to figure out some powerful high-level feats so that a Man At Arms is actually on par with a caster that has 4+ 9th level spells per day. Since feats are 'always on', they shouldn't be as powerful as a single casting of such a spell but they should provide the same amount of overall adventurer power as being able to cast 4+ ninth level spells per day.

Out of curiosity what choices were you going to make regarding AC, DR, saving throws, hit die types and various sundry conversion decisions?

 

[Brother Richard]

My Response

I mean using normal D&D feats. I thought this would be intewresting because it makes fighting classes more powerful at high levels to rival magic casters and it also makes fighting classses fun instead of boring.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I mean using normal D&D feats. I thought this would be intewresting because it makes fighting classes more powerful at high levels to rival magic casters and it also makes fighting classses fun instead of boring.

I completely agree with your support of IH.

As I implied, a lot of that power comes from the very impressive high level feats that Iron Heroes get access to. They can still be shown up by a couple maximized fireballs but at least it's interesting. Without those feats you will probably be surprised at how weak high level Iron Heroes will be, though magic gear will give them other options that will put them back on par in a different way.

Also, most of the options that make the fighting classes fun are either the classes' token abilities or the stunt and challenge options (which would port directly over). The exceptions to that statement are the neat options provided by feats that aren't in the SRD, which you won't be including.

 

[nothing to see here]

just caught this thread about IH conversions. On the surface...it is hard, particularly with the magic items/non magic items break down.

However, I find that, should you be a tinkerer, a couple of strategic compromises actually bring IH classes fairly closely in line with non IH classes, whatever the level of magic.

Here's what we did:

ABILITIES: This, obviously, has to be standardized.

BAB: Degrade all of the IH BABs by one step, so that a BAB that used to max out at 25 now maxes out at 20 instead. Leave standard D&D classes as is.

DEFENCE BONUS: This is the most 'legwork' intensive step. Use IH base rules, but D&D classes need to have a defence bonus, and the IH bonus needs to be degraded. I reccomend using as a 'compromise' system, the defence bonus rules published in Green Ronin's EXCELLENT Advanced Players Guide.

SKILLS: Iron Heroes has conversion rules that work both ways move all classes to one system to another.

FEATS: Ditto Either bring Iron Heores characters down a notch to the D&D progression, or raise D&D characters up to the Iron Heroes Progression.

HIT POINTS: Again, easy to adjudicate -- it is easy to adapt Iron Heroes Classes to D&D or vice versa.

SAVES: Iron Heroes classes need to be depowered a little. I also have Malhavoc's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, and I simply assigned, as logical, one 'Good' save, one 'Medium' save (as defined in AU/AE) and one 'poor' save to each IH character.

FEAT MASTERY RATINGS: There is a conversion guide in the IH Players Hanbbook but I find it too simple. Fot Lore Feats I treat Bards, wizards and clerics as if they ahd a good BAB, Ragners, Rogues, Sorcerers, Paladins and Monks as if they had aa Medium BAB, and fighters and Barbarians as if they had a low BAB. For Social Feats I use base (WILL save +1) as a stand in for BAB. I also allowed each player to choose one mastery category which would also count as one level higher than it should, with the option of adding additional categories a +1 for each feat category you 'depowered' at -2. It's all hypothetical at this point since the D&D players have stuck to D&D feats, anyway.

...


Is this a complicated process. The first time around, hell yeah!

But after a while it gets intuitive. What I find results is a system where I can plug d20 and IH classes together to my hearts content. Both can use magic items (I prefer a level of magic at the median of the two systems) equally, and you don't need to tinker with the tokens or other class based abilities of the IH classes. Challenges, stunts and all of that crazy stuff are still viable options.

And, for right now, in my group...that is a very rewarding thing.

 

[reanjr]

IH characters without their feats are very underpowered comared to D&D characters.

 

[nothing to see here]

IH characters without their feats are very underpowered comared to D&D characters.

I didn't find that so (thought one group does not make a playtest)...for our system, anyway, keep in mind that we were toning 'down' the number of magic items for D&D characters but, at the same time 'toning up' the number of magic items that IH characters had access to.

Giveing an IH character a couple of magic items, seems to rebalance okay...though 'balance' is one of those very subjective terms.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I didn't find that so <snip>

Did you have many casters in the party? How did the IH characters compare to them? What levels were involved?

I'm genuinely curious.