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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 5959298" data-attributes="member: 27160"><p>Which hobby are we talking about? Roleplaying Games? - then that's not what the hobby is; it's merely your (apparently) extremely narrow view of it. D&D? - then not only is that a very narrow and restricted view of what it "is", it's a specific angle that D&D has always been exceptionally poor at, compared to various other systems.</p><p></p><p>Now, there is nothing wrong with "improv theatre in a fantasy world" as <strong><em>an</em></strong> approach to roleplaying - it's a valid and potentially fun angle on the hobby. But to claim it's the <em>only</em> one - and then further to suggest using D&D rules for doing it - is invalid and misleading.</p><p></p><p>To say that balance is "objectively better" is, for the general case, obviously wrong. Balance, as it has been discussed here, is only better if the players are expected and expecting to be active participants in the game through the agency of their player characters. There are cases where this is not true:</p><p></p><p>- the players may be active participants, but not (only) through the agency of their characters (suggesting things to other players or to the GM, for example, or even having a role in defining the game world and in-game action resolutions)</p><p></p><p>- the players may not want, expect or be expected to be active participants; they might have a role for much or all of the time as simply an audience, passively observing the story as it passes by, maybe making the occasional easy or fairly obvious "decision".</p><p></p><p>If, however, the players <strong><em>do</em></strong> want and expect to be active participants through the agency of their characters, it is definitely a good thing if their characters are given the power to have some agency at all points in the game. I.e., they should be balanced.</p><p></p><p>One of the reasons I like 4e above all other editions of D&D is that this is not true (rituals being open to everyone who invests resources in them). I like 4e because it supports a game where <strong><em>all</em></strong> of the players are active participants through the agency of their characters. I think that D&D has always been a better game when this has been expected, because the central premise of going on adventures (classically, down in <strong>Dungeons</strong>) and fighting challenging monsters (including <strong>Dragons</strong> - the clue really is in the name) works best as a challenge-busting game. I am aware that there are those who have used D&D as more of an entertainment or toy, to be fiddled with and observed rather than played, but I have always found that other systems worked far better for this style of Roleplaying, hence I have no interest in something that tries to be such a thing while still using the core mechanics of D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 5959298, member: 27160"] Which hobby are we talking about? Roleplaying Games? - then that's not what the hobby is; it's merely your (apparently) extremely narrow view of it. D&D? - then not only is that a very narrow and restricted view of what it "is", it's a specific angle that D&D has always been exceptionally poor at, compared to various other systems. Now, there is nothing wrong with "improv theatre in a fantasy world" as [B][I]an[/I][/B] approach to roleplaying - it's a valid and potentially fun angle on the hobby. But to claim it's the [I]only[/I] one - and then further to suggest using D&D rules for doing it - is invalid and misleading. To say that balance is "objectively better" is, for the general case, obviously wrong. Balance, as it has been discussed here, is only better if the players are expected and expecting to be active participants in the game through the agency of their player characters. There are cases where this is not true: - the players may be active participants, but not (only) through the agency of their characters (suggesting things to other players or to the GM, for example, or even having a role in defining the game world and in-game action resolutions) - the players may not want, expect or be expected to be active participants; they might have a role for much or all of the time as simply an audience, passively observing the story as it passes by, maybe making the occasional easy or fairly obvious "decision". If, however, the players [B][I]do[/I][/B] want and expect to be active participants through the agency of their characters, it is definitely a good thing if their characters are given the power to have some agency at all points in the game. I.e., they should be balanced. One of the reasons I like 4e above all other editions of D&D is that this is not true (rituals being open to everyone who invests resources in them). I like 4e because it supports a game where [B][I]all[/I][/B] of the players are active participants through the agency of their characters. I think that D&D has always been a better game when this has been expected, because the central premise of going on adventures (classically, down in [B]Dungeons[/B]) and fighting challenging monsters (including [B]Dragons[/B] - the clue really is in the name) works best as a challenge-busting game. I am aware that there are those who have used D&D as more of an entertainment or toy, to be fiddled with and observed rather than played, but I have always found that other systems worked far better for this style of Roleplaying, hence I have no interest in something that tries to be such a thing while still using the core mechanics of D&D. [/QUOTE]
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