Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5961235" data-attributes="member: 48965">I guess this would depend on one's definition of &quot;heroic fantasy&quot;. IMO, the rules do a fairly good job of creating a game of the type of heroic fantasy found in sword and sorcery tales. But even looking at something more &quot;high fantasy&quot; such as The Hobbit... Bilbo and the Dwarves are pretty much amoral treasure hunters, who explore wilderness and dungeons while slaying and or fleeing from dangerous creatures that are for the most part unrelated to Smaug&nbsp;&nbsp;But there are rules for where and how one can gain a magic sword and the stats for dragons... this seems a little specific and more centered on campaign setting creation as opposed to the actual rules. I know for a fact there were published adventures with hermits who had treasure... not sure about an official &quot;dragon tyrant&quot; though. &nbsp;&nbsp;Exactly which D&amp;D are you speaking to? &nbsp;&nbsp;Perhaps you should define exactly what you mean by &quot;heroic fantasy&quot;. In some/many/most heroic fantasy dungeon or wilderness journeying, and loot are a big part of the stories.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;That's just it though... there are a ton of heroic fantasy stories where the protagonists are little more than mercenaries, especially during the time in which D&amp;D came to prominince. Elric, Conan, Bilbo, Fafhrd, Gray Mouser and so on are all mercenaries who adventure for loot... I mean even Arthur's quest for the Holy Grail can arguably be described as being about loot.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Again, please define &quot;heroic&quot; because I'm sorry but I don't get what a &quot;default storyline of heroic conflict&quot; is... the stories I've read are so varied and different I find this kind of artificial when you try to apply some type of default to all heroic fantasy... and in fact I am beginning to suspect that you are moreso speaking to a very narrow band of heroic fantasy when talking about this supposed default.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm, intersting. I find that 4e core in turn doesn't support PC's coming into rulership (which many heroic stories support), or the leading of armies, or even the hireing of henchmen. Again this seems more centered on your own preferences of heroic fantasy than anything objective. If that's the case I get it because everyone wants the game to support their specifc playstyle... but I get the impression you're trying to make objective statements here.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;How doesn't the selection of one's race, class, alignment, etc. not embed PC's in circumstances of heroic conflict. Yet again this seems more based in campaign/setting than in the rules. I'll grant you quest rewards support a different type of story... but then 4e (as well as 2e and 3e) removed the XP for gold rules and thus IMO traded one type of heroic story for another to support with xp. Well at least in the last sentence you've stated clearly that this is in fact about a specific type of heroic fiction you prefer. I can accept that, I just wonder if this is the type of heroic fiction the majority of D&amp;D players were or are interested in recreating.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 5961235, member: 48965"] I guess this would depend on one's definition of "heroic fantasy". IMO, the rules do a fairly good job of creating a game of the type of heroic fantasy found in sword and sorcery tales. But even looking at something more "high fantasy" such as The Hobbit... Bilbo and the Dwarves are pretty much amoral treasure hunters, who explore wilderness and dungeons while slaying and or fleeing from dangerous creatures that are for the most part unrelated to Smaug But there are rules for where and how one can gain a magic sword and the stats for dragons... this seems a little specific and more centered on campaign setting creation as opposed to the actual rules. I know for a fact there were published adventures with hermits who had treasure... not sure about an official "dragon tyrant" though. Exactly which D&D are you speaking to? Perhaps you should define exactly what you mean by "heroic fantasy". In some/many/most heroic fantasy dungeon or wilderness journeying, and loot are a big part of the stories. That's just it though... there are a ton of heroic fantasy stories where the protagonists are little more than mercenaries, especially during the time in which D&D came to prominince. Elric, Conan, Bilbo, Fafhrd, Gray Mouser and so on are all mercenaries who adventure for loot... I mean even Arthur's quest for the Holy Grail can arguably be described as being about loot. Again, please define "heroic" because I'm sorry but I don't get what a "default storyline of heroic conflict" is... the stories I've read are so varied and different I find this kind of artificial when you try to apply some type of default to all heroic fantasy... and in fact I am beginning to suspect that you are moreso speaking to a very narrow band of heroic fantasy when talking about this supposed default. Hmmm, intersting. I find that 4e core in turn doesn't support PC's coming into rulership (which many heroic stories support), or the leading of armies, or even the hireing of henchmen. Again this seems more centered on your own preferences of heroic fantasy than anything objective. If that's the case I get it because everyone wants the game to support their specifc playstyle... but I get the impression you're trying to make objective statements here. How doesn't the selection of one's race, class, alignment, etc. not embed PC's in circumstances of heroic conflict. Yet again this seems more based in campaign/setting than in the rules. I'll grant you quest rewards support a different type of story... but then 4e (as well as 2e and 3e) removed the XP for gold rules and thus IMO traded one type of heroic story for another to support with xp. Well at least in the last sentence you've stated clearly that this is in fact about a specific type of heroic fiction you prefer. I can accept that, I just wonder if this is the type of heroic fiction the majority of D&D players were or are interested in recreating. [/QUOTE]

Verification