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Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Aenghus" data-source="post: 5965174" data-attributes="member: 2656"><p>There are different sorts of "player agency", it can exist in different layers of the game. The macro or strategic layer is often what's meant by player agency, but it's not the only one.</p><p></p><p>In earlier versions of the game, any actions beyond the most basic required negotiation with the referee. Some players enjoy constant negotiation like that, others don't, and I'm in the latter category. Also, the bigger a difference between the viewpoints of the referee and player the more fractious and less fun negotiation is, and the more likely the result of negotation will be negative. Repeated negative experiences of this sort result in reduced player agency at the micro scale, as players stop trying to improvise and settle on a few "safe" options. </p><p></p><p>Do the mechanics and rules represent the game world in an essentially accurate way or just loosely approximate the game world subject to the rulings and whims of the referee? The latter can way can work well if all involved have the same instincts and see the game world and "how things work" in the same way. In my experience this is often not the case, so I prefer the former version, which does reduce the frustrating subjectiveness of description a little, which for me improves my agency as a player by being better able to understand the game world as portrayed without constant niggling disagreements and mutual incomprension, and affect it in ways all involved can agree on.</p><p></p><p>(Obviously at some point people are incompatible and shouldn't play in the same game as they see the world too differently to communicate effectively. But I think most people have some flexibility and can compromise to create an enjoyable game far more than for instance the internet suggests). </p><p></p><p>What I find 4e is good at is providing improved player agency at the micro or tactical layer. Powers are transparent and reliable in a way previous editions didn't provide, producing an effect in most cases that isn't arbitrarily negated by resistances and immunities, or the prejudices of the referee. Powers in a way act as contracts guaranteeing player agency in small packets, a guarantee they can do something more complex than a basic attack without having to negotiate for it or bargain with the GM. In previous editions of the game spellcasters were the classes who got the bulk of such guarantees, and this is one reason I preferred spellcasters in earlier editions of the game. </p><p></p><p>I saw lots of other players making poor choices when it came to improvised actions, regularly choosing options with minimal success chances and/or horrible drawbacks that the referee offfered them based on the rules and their personal tastes. This also damages player agency. Recent coverage of the next edition indicates that these sort of flawed mechanics may return, and certainly isn't encouraging me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aenghus, post: 5965174, member: 2656"] There are different sorts of "player agency", it can exist in different layers of the game. The macro or strategic layer is often what's meant by player agency, but it's not the only one. In earlier versions of the game, any actions beyond the most basic required negotiation with the referee. Some players enjoy constant negotiation like that, others don't, and I'm in the latter category. Also, the bigger a difference between the viewpoints of the referee and player the more fractious and less fun negotiation is, and the more likely the result of negotation will be negative. Repeated negative experiences of this sort result in reduced player agency at the micro scale, as players stop trying to improvise and settle on a few "safe" options. Do the mechanics and rules represent the game world in an essentially accurate way or just loosely approximate the game world subject to the rulings and whims of the referee? The latter can way can work well if all involved have the same instincts and see the game world and "how things work" in the same way. In my experience this is often not the case, so I prefer the former version, which does reduce the frustrating subjectiveness of description a little, which for me improves my agency as a player by being better able to understand the game world as portrayed without constant niggling disagreements and mutual incomprension, and affect it in ways all involved can agree on. (Obviously at some point people are incompatible and shouldn't play in the same game as they see the world too differently to communicate effectively. But I think most people have some flexibility and can compromise to create an enjoyable game far more than for instance the internet suggests). What I find 4e is good at is providing improved player agency at the micro or tactical layer. Powers are transparent and reliable in a way previous editions didn't provide, producing an effect in most cases that isn't arbitrarily negated by resistances and immunities, or the prejudices of the referee. Powers in a way act as contracts guaranteeing player agency in small packets, a guarantee they can do something more complex than a basic attack without having to negotiate for it or bargain with the GM. In previous editions of the game spellcasters were the classes who got the bulk of such guarantees, and this is one reason I preferred spellcasters in earlier editions of the game. I saw lots of other players making poor choices when it came to improvised actions, regularly choosing options with minimal success chances and/or horrible drawbacks that the referee offfered them based on the rules and their personal tastes. This also damages player agency. Recent coverage of the next edition indicates that these sort of flawed mechanics may return, and certainly isn't encouraging me. [/QUOTE]
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