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Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Ahnehnois" data-source="post: 5983064" data-attributes="member: 17106"><p>It seems that you grossly misunderstand what moviemaking is about, and thus my analogy. The Dark Knight was directed by Christopher Nolan. The final product, however, reflects the vision and expertise of set designers, costume designers, cinematographers, composers, editors, actors, and many more people. Nolan used all of these people, but he was still in charge, he oversaw everything, and he had final say on everything.</p><p></p><p>It's not antagonistic as you make it sound.</p><p></p><p>And yes, my players are very happy, and they're generally more happy the more of a strong hand I use, and they generally are reluctant to DM instead of me even though they can. Just like a great director is surrounded by people who are willing to put in hard work for him. Do you think everyone in Hollywood that's not a director wishes they were, or is unhappy, or is wasting their time? Most of them are not well paid, but are happy to act and read lines off the page, clean the set up after everyone leaves, or spend a month animating one creature that goes in the background. And D&D players have far more substantial roles than that.</p><p></p><p>DMing is absolutely like movie directing.</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION] makes a good point as well. Most designers very explicitly tell you that you should use your judgment over the rules. Most of them play with major houserules and make changes on the fly as well.</p><p></p><p>In the modern age, correctness does not have to be obvious. It is entirely possible to calculate average dice rolls and outcomes for a variety of scenarios. Some character abilities are clearly better than others, even in relatively well-designed systems (like 2e and 3e D&D, and presumably the other editions as well).</p><p></p><p>If your character merely has a strength bonus and a +2 skill and the DM decides when that bonus applies, as opposed to having to pick a bunch of complex powers, there's really not much to analyze (or overanalyze). 5e is doing some good in this regard so far.</p><p></p><p>Not at all. How many scientific studies have been published on what makes a good D&D mechanic? How much D&D-specific education, training, and certification/licensure is there? How much history does the business have? None, none, and virtually none.</p><p></p><p>This is not brain surgery. There is no evidence that Gary Gygax or anyone else is better at designing games than any of us, period, let alone are they better at designing rules for our specific campaigns then we are. Frankly, I could probably write a better D&D than has ever been written, for a broad audience as well as my own group, but I have better things to do with my time and no interest in entering the business. The same is probably true for other ENWorlders. Game designers have done some good work and that work is helpful, but it is not dogma.</p><p></p><p>The DM is equally responsible whether he follows the rules or not. He's always responsible. It's his job to make the game worth people's time and effort, one that he should be doing well.</p><p></p><p>It is though. Right there in the book. I'm not sure if I should explain why as I've posted extensively on it lately, or not even bother.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ahnehnois, post: 5983064, member: 17106"] It seems that you grossly misunderstand what moviemaking is about, and thus my analogy. The Dark Knight was directed by Christopher Nolan. The final product, however, reflects the vision and expertise of set designers, costume designers, cinematographers, composers, editors, actors, and many more people. Nolan used all of these people, but he was still in charge, he oversaw everything, and he had final say on everything. It's not antagonistic as you make it sound. And yes, my players are very happy, and they're generally more happy the more of a strong hand I use, and they generally are reluctant to DM instead of me even though they can. Just like a great director is surrounded by people who are willing to put in hard work for him. Do you think everyone in Hollywood that's not a director wishes they were, or is unhappy, or is wasting their time? Most of them are not well paid, but are happy to act and read lines off the page, clean the set up after everyone leaves, or spend a month animating one creature that goes in the background. And D&D players have far more substantial roles than that. DMing is absolutely like movie directing. [MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION] makes a good point as well. Most designers very explicitly tell you that you should use your judgment over the rules. Most of them play with major houserules and make changes on the fly as well. In the modern age, correctness does not have to be obvious. It is entirely possible to calculate average dice rolls and outcomes for a variety of scenarios. Some character abilities are clearly better than others, even in relatively well-designed systems (like 2e and 3e D&D, and presumably the other editions as well). If your character merely has a strength bonus and a +2 skill and the DM decides when that bonus applies, as opposed to having to pick a bunch of complex powers, there's really not much to analyze (or overanalyze). 5e is doing some good in this regard so far. Not at all. How many scientific studies have been published on what makes a good D&D mechanic? How much D&D-specific education, training, and certification/licensure is there? How much history does the business have? None, none, and virtually none. This is not brain surgery. There is no evidence that Gary Gygax or anyone else is better at designing games than any of us, period, let alone are they better at designing rules for our specific campaigns then we are. Frankly, I could probably write a better D&D than has ever been written, for a broad audience as well as my own group, but I have better things to do with my time and no interest in entering the business. The same is probably true for other ENWorlders. Game designers have done some good work and that work is helpful, but it is not dogma. The DM is equally responsible whether he follows the rules or not. He's always responsible. It's his job to make the game worth people's time and effort, one that he should be doing well. It is though. Right there in the book. I'm not sure if I should explain why as I've posted extensively on it lately, or not even bother. [/QUOTE]
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