Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6000479" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>In a sense, I suppose. What it's doing is saving you from yourself, a bit. If you give a monster a deplorable REF, it'll be auto-hit by REF attacks, and that's too big an Achilles heel for encounter balance to survive. You have thrown down a paper tiger, and the PCs have the scissors. Encounter balance can break down in any game, including 4e, that's just one pitfall it tried to avoid. You saw the same sort of thing in 3e with 'natural armor' bonuses that got very high for very little reason so that higher level monsters wouldn't be minced by iterative attacks, but could be hit by virtually auto-hit by 1/2-BAB touch attacks that set up saving throws (and, if it was a REF save, the broad-side-of-the-barn 10 touch-AC monster would still have a high REF, for some reason). Each game's monster stats bowed to the necessities of the mechanics used to model characters. </p><p></p><p>I think you're onto something. 4e is much more PC-centric. Monsters may be arrayed in status-quo, if that's the DM style. If you go to The Great Smoking Mountain, there's a huge red dragon there, whether you're 1st or 27th. But, how the DM stats the same monster may vary depending on the level of the party and the part it plays in their story. If you encounter an ancient red dragon at 1st level, it'll be a skill challenge to travel through it's territory without attracting it's fatal attentions, at high Paragon you'd fight it as a solo of near your level, at Epic, it might be statted as an elite or even standard monster of close to your level allied with other enemies to have a chance against you. The stats change to model the threat (or role) the same monster plays in the party's story at different levels. </p><p></p><p>Not so much. Climbing is a skill in 3e, and you have some defined difficulties. Athletics is a skill in 4e that includes climbing, and you have some defined difficulties. Jumping (also a skill in 3e, IIRC) is a good example. You know how far you can jump with what DC in either game.</p><p></p><p>The idea that the DC of the same task (jumping over a chasm of a given width, say) scales with level in 4e is an odd misconception. I guess it comes from having a chart of easy-hard DCs in the book or something.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6000479, member: 996"] In a sense, I suppose. What it's doing is saving you from yourself, a bit. If you give a monster a deplorable REF, it'll be auto-hit by REF attacks, and that's too big an Achilles heel for encounter balance to survive. You have thrown down a paper tiger, and the PCs have the scissors. Encounter balance can break down in any game, including 4e, that's just one pitfall it tried to avoid. You saw the same sort of thing in 3e with 'natural armor' bonuses that got very high for very little reason so that higher level monsters wouldn't be minced by iterative attacks, but could be hit by virtually auto-hit by 1/2-BAB touch attacks that set up saving throws (and, if it was a REF save, the broad-side-of-the-barn 10 touch-AC monster would still have a high REF, for some reason). Each game's monster stats bowed to the necessities of the mechanics used to model characters. I think you're onto something. 4e is much more PC-centric. Monsters may be arrayed in status-quo, if that's the DM style. If you go to The Great Smoking Mountain, there's a huge red dragon there, whether you're 1st or 27th. But, how the DM stats the same monster may vary depending on the level of the party and the part it plays in their story. If you encounter an ancient red dragon at 1st level, it'll be a skill challenge to travel through it's territory without attracting it's fatal attentions, at high Paragon you'd fight it as a solo of near your level, at Epic, it might be statted as an elite or even standard monster of close to your level allied with other enemies to have a chance against you. The stats change to model the threat (or role) the same monster plays in the party's story at different levels. Not so much. Climbing is a skill in 3e, and you have some defined difficulties. Athletics is a skill in 4e that includes climbing, and you have some defined difficulties. Jumping (also a skill in 3e, IIRC) is a good example. You know how far you can jump with what DC in either game. The idea that the DC of the same task (jumping over a chasm of a given width, say) scales with level in 4e is an odd misconception. I guess it comes from having a chart of easy-hard DCs in the book or something. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition
Top