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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7167821" data-attributes="member: 996">Once there were just too many of them, yes, of course.&nbsp; [sblock=&quot;I often go on about 'list based' systems, if you've heard that rant enough already, just skip it.&quot;]So, a system can be 'effects based,' the mechanics model what your character can accomplish, you fill in how they accomplish it.Or, a system can be 'list based,' the mechanics model what your character can do, including how they do it.&nbsp; Since an RPG character could conceivably do almost anything, these lists tend to just grow and grow...List-based systems either stagnate and die, or bloat and die.&nbsp; If you don't add to the lists that make up a list based system the finite options they offer eventually pall and players lose interest.If you /do/ add to the lists to keep it interesting, the ways in which players can combine elements for each list expand exponentially, and eventually, some of those combinations 'break,' obviating many others, and ruining game balance - again, ironically, causing the game to net lose really choices and become less interesting to players.D&amp;D has always been list-based.&nbsp; It has generally bloated &amp; died, to be replaced by a new edition.4e, though, was so robustly balanced in most areas that it resisted the deleterious effects of the inevitable bloat surprisingly well.&nbsp; You couldn't cross-pollinate powers profligately, you couldn't 'spam' a broken encounter or daily power, you couldn't combine 10 classes in one character, there weren't expanding skill lists, etc.&nbsp; It was also a little bit effects-based in that it let you re-skin your characters appearance ( as 3e had), and more significantly, explicitly let you re-skin your powers, leaving only the mechanical effects unchanged (in 2e, there was a spell that let you do that to other spells, in 3.5 there was a late edition wizard feat that let you do so with spells - both were fairly obscure).There was one area where 4e was full-on list-based, with all the pitfalls thereof:&nbsp; Feats.[/sblock]One solution is to use pregens for new players.&nbsp; Seems to work quite well in 4e if you use the CB.&nbsp; Actually, the off-line CB was better because you could customize and condense a character sheet down to 2 pages.&nbsp; &nbsp;Not see'n it.&nbsp; Of course, 2e was the one ed that actually lost my interest.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7167821, member: 996"] Once there were just too many of them, yes, of course. [sblock="I often go on about 'list based' systems, if you've heard that rant enough already, just skip it."] So, a system can be 'effects based,' the mechanics model what your character can accomplish, you fill in how they accomplish it. Or, a system can be 'list based,' the mechanics model what your character can do, including how they do it. Since an RPG character could conceivably do almost anything, these lists tend to just grow and grow... List-based systems either stagnate and die, or bloat and die. If you don't add to the lists that make up a list based system the finite options they offer eventually pall and players lose interest. If you /do/ add to the lists to keep it interesting, the ways in which players can combine elements for each list expand exponentially, and eventually, some of those combinations 'break,' obviating many others, and ruining game balance - again, ironically, causing the game to net lose really choices and become less interesting to players. D&D has always been list-based. It has generally bloated & died, to be replaced by a new edition. 4e, though, was so robustly balanced in most areas that it resisted the deleterious effects of the inevitable bloat surprisingly well. You couldn't cross-pollinate powers profligately, you couldn't 'spam' a broken encounter or daily power, you couldn't combine 10 classes in one character, there weren't expanding skill lists, etc. It was also a little bit effects-based in that it let you re-skin your characters appearance ( as 3e had), and more significantly, explicitly let you re-skin your powers, leaving only the mechanical effects unchanged (in 2e, there was a spell that let you do that to other spells, in 3.5 there was a late edition wizard feat that let you do so with spells - both were fairly obscure). There was one area where 4e was full-on list-based, with all the pitfalls thereof: Feats. [/sblock] One solution is to use pregens for new players. Seems to work quite well in 4e if you use the CB. Actually, the off-line CB was better because you could customize and condense a character sheet down to 2 pages. Not see'n it. Of course, 2e was the one ed that actually lost my interest. [/QUOTE]

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