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<blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8558416" data-attributes="member: 83242">No it doesn't. It adds to them, and by using the rules in the book!&nbsp; Plus, they don't have to adopt anything.&nbsp; There is no up limit to what is a &quot;deadly&quot; encounter. You don't have to define what is a severe or extreme encounter at all. Providing something the is more challenging than &quot;deadly&quot; is OK. Heck, they have done it in official adventures! And as far as I can tell you are not writing an adventure so the encounter guidelines are moot. Finally, people are much more likely to look at CR than the encounter building guidelines.&nbsp; At this point, many people simple disregard the encounter guidelines.The issue is not CR though. It is the design of those monsters.&nbsp; You can design those monsters to be much more difficult encounters, within the CR budget.&nbsp; WotC hasn't done that for reasons (I am guessing for simplicity and ease for new comers, but I don't really know their reasons). And of course you can always slap the mythic template (which I think all demon lords should have) on them or just raise there CR.But some people do.&nbsp; My main group is lvl 15 now and I can scare the hell of them with CR 23-25 monster. Which is an appropriate challenge for them.Yes you can. I've done it, and I am sure you can do it too.I agree, that is why I make them tougher.I agree, but no need to change the CR, just make him stronger. Your solution would be to make that stat block a CR 17 or so, but that doesn't make Orcus any stronger. Just actually make Orcus stronger and let the CR lands where it lands. Otherwise, you need to both make him stronger and make a new CR system. What is the logic in that?You are the one worried about the arbitrary numbers.&nbsp; I am saying let go of the numbers. Make the monsters you want, and just let the CR land where it lands. Don't get hung up on changing the CR, spend your time making cool and challenging monsters.&nbsp; That doesn't change whatever you make the CR.Yes, I have already done that. If you don't make a new stat block for him all you have done is demote him to a CR 17 monster.&nbsp; How is that any better? I don't see how making a new stat block for Orcus is even an issue. You would need to do it in your system too.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="dave2008, post: 8558416, member: 83242"] No it doesn't. It adds to them, and by using the rules in the book! Plus, they don't have to adopt anything. There is no up limit to what is a "deadly" encounter. You don't have to define what is a severe or extreme encounter at all. Providing something the is more challenging than "deadly" is OK. Heck, they have done it in official adventures! And as far as I can tell you are not writing an adventure so the encounter guidelines are moot. Finally, people are much more likely to look at CR than the encounter building guidelines. At this point, many people simple disregard the encounter guidelines. The issue is not CR though. It is the design of those monsters. You can design those monsters to be much more difficult encounters, within the CR budget. WotC hasn't done that for reasons (I am guessing for simplicity and ease for new comers, but I don't really know their reasons). And of course you can always slap the mythic template (which I think all demon lords should have) on them or just raise there CR. But some people do. My main group is lvl 15 now and I can scare the hell of them with CR 23-25 monster. Which is an appropriate challenge for them. Yes you can. I've done it, and I am sure you can do it too. I agree, that is why I make them tougher. I agree, but no need to change the CR, just make him stronger. Your solution would be to make that stat block a CR 17 or so, but that doesn't make Orcus any stronger. Just actually make Orcus stronger and let the CR lands where it lands. Otherwise, you need to both make him stronger and make a new CR system. What is the logic in that? You are the one worried about the arbitrary numbers. I am saying let go of the numbers. Make the monsters you want, and just let the CR land where it lands. Don't get hung up on changing the CR, spend your time making cool and challenging monsters. That doesn't change whatever you make the CR. Yes, I have already done that. If you don't make a new stat block for him all you have done is demote him to a CR 17 monster. How is that any better? I don't see how making a new stat block for Orcus is even an issue. You would need to do it in your system too. [/QUOTE]

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