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Message: <blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8561064" data-attributes="member: 83242">Right back at ya!That has nothing to do with including legendary actions in the CR.  I mean sure, if I don't count 1/3 of a creatures damage in the CR calc, that will make the CR lower, but that is also just lying about the CR of the monster.Epic Monsters are weak for a few reasons:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There CR is to low (don't do enough damage primarily)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They don't have enough movement options</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They don't have tips and tricks to deal with player abilities.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They don't have enough interesting abilities</li> </ul>Your method might help solve the first one, but it doesn't anything about the rest of them.  The first method can be handled by just upping the CR too.No, I don't agree with that perspective. That is to meta IMO. They are what they are, nothing more or less. The CR should reflect that.I have no idea what that means, I guess I will have to wait and see!My real question is: are tagging or noting your monsters in some way so that it is clear that they are not standard or legendary monsters? Are you calling your version of Legendary Actions something else, like I feel you should?I just think you are wrong on that, based on my experience.  So I will need to adjsut your CRs for my use. But I typically used custom epic monsters anyway.Well that is obviously not how it works RAW, but it your system and you can do what you want.  Just be clear that it is your system please.This doesn't seem like a response to my question so I will be a bit more clear. With your monsters are Legendary Actions that cause damage a Primary factor? If not, why not?That is a bit disappointing, but I get that it makes design easier.Yep, I look forward to looking it over.  Good luck finishing it up!OK, I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking generally, not specifically.  In terms of 5e currently (not with your changes to CR), this is what I did (so this is what felt right to me):Demon Lords: CR 21-30Demon Princes: CR 31-35Demigods: CR 21-25Lesser gods: CR 26-30Intermediate gods: CR 31-35Greater gods: CR 36-40For me personally, pretty much yes. In my epic rules, mortals will have basically 0 chance without divine intervention to take on a demon prince.In terms of standard 5e I would say 4-5 typical lvl 20 PCs can't take down a demon prince.  If you get 7+ and/or have exceptional equipment: artifacts, boons, etc., then there is at least a chance.For me, being 20th level isn't enough.  You need to be an exception level 20 band of heroes to take down a demon prince.I'm sure you will and I can't wait.  Keep up the good work!</blockquote>

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