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<blockquote data-quote="auburn2" data-source="post: 8214013" data-attributes="member: 6855259">For find familiar with a sorcerer, the ritual caster feat is objectively better.&nbsp;&nbsp; For a Rogue or another class with no spells magic initiate with find familiar and a few cantrips may be a viable option,&nbsp; but not for a sorcerer IMO.As for no point in being a wizard:1.&nbsp; Your barbarian is surrounded by 8 enemies, cast fireball on top of the barbarian and damgae not a hair on the Barbarians head, while doing 8d6 to everyone else within 20ft.&nbsp; No one other than a wizard can do this.2.&nbsp; Literally charm one enemy every single encounter.&nbsp; No spell slot needed.&nbsp; One guard on the gate, charm him and walk by.&nbsp; Another in the foyer, charm him and walk by, another near the Duke's bedroom charm him and walk by.&nbsp; Then charm the Duke himself and have the Barbarian get a free attack on him and you still have not used a single spell slot.3.&nbsp; Find Familiar - enough said5. AC19 with full caster slots plus shield spell for 24AC at 2nd level with point buy.6. being able to cast mending (normally 1 minute cast time) and make an attack as a single action.&nbsp; Alternatively being able to cast ANY wizard cantrip or any cantrip at all if multiclassed and still attack.&nbsp; If you are multiclssed you can throw guidance on top of your athletics check to shove someone off the cliff! .... in one turn!7. being able to decide what number your enemy rolls on his save twice a day.8.&nbsp; Casting fireball and having it do slashing damage (or acid or cold ....) becuase you are fighting a bunch of devils that are immune to fire.9. Being able to reduce ANY damage by 25 (10th level) or up up to 45 (18th+ level) by using spell slots as a reaction.Only a wizard can do these things.As someone who has played a lot of wizards I have found myself on the exact opposite of your argument.&nbsp; Would it be worth a couple wizard levels to get subtle spell or quickened spell?&nbsp; Other than that what does the sorcerer offer that a wizard can't do better?IMO the only advantage a sorcerer has is charisma.&nbsp;&nbsp; That is a more useful stat than intelligence.&nbsp; So if you are looking at role play in a point buy situation sorcerer is attractive because you can dump intelligence and make him a more &quot;all around&quot; character.&nbsp; Dumping Charisma is rather denbilitating in terms of role play.&nbsp; To be honest, that is the only reason I can think that someone would take sorcerer over wizard.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="auburn2, post: 8214013, member: 6855259"] For find familiar with a sorcerer, the ritual caster feat is objectively better. For a Rogue or another class with no spells magic initiate with find familiar and a few cantrips may be a viable option, but not for a sorcerer IMO. As for no point in being a wizard: 1. Your barbarian is surrounded by 8 enemies, cast fireball on top of the barbarian and damgae not a hair on the Barbarians head, while doing 8d6 to everyone else within 20ft. No one other than a wizard can do this. 2. Literally charm one enemy every single encounter. No spell slot needed. One guard on the gate, charm him and walk by. Another in the foyer, charm him and walk by, another near the Duke's bedroom charm him and walk by. Then charm the Duke himself and have the Barbarian get a free attack on him and you still have not used a single spell slot. 3. Find Familiar - enough said 5. AC19 with full caster slots plus shield spell for 24AC at 2nd level with point buy. 6. being able to cast mending (normally 1 minute cast time) and make an attack as a single action. Alternatively being able to cast ANY wizard cantrip or any cantrip at all if multiclassed and still attack. If you are multiclssed you can throw guidance on top of your athletics check to shove someone off the cliff! .... in one turn! 7. being able to decide what number your enemy rolls on his save twice a day. 8. Casting fireball and having it do slashing damage (or acid or cold ....) becuase you are fighting a bunch of devils that are immune to fire. 9. Being able to reduce ANY damage by 25 (10th level) or up up to 45 (18th+ level) by using spell slots as a reaction. Only a wizard can do these things. As someone who has played a lot of wizards I have found myself on the exact opposite of your argument. Would it be worth a couple wizard levels to get subtle spell or quickened spell? Other than that what does the sorcerer offer that a wizard can't do better? IMO the only advantage a sorcerer has is charisma. That is a more useful stat than intelligence. So if you are looking at role play in a point buy situation sorcerer is attractive because you can dump intelligence and make him a more "all around" character. Dumping Charisma is rather denbilitating in terms of role play. To be honest, that is the only reason I can think that someone would take sorcerer over wizard. [/QUOTE]

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