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Counterspell fix/rework
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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8070422" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>How about:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">As a reaction you can attempt to identify a spell whose components you can see or hear before the spell goes off. The DC is 10+twice the spell level (not the slot level). (After a spell goes off, the DC is 10+the spell level, but at that point it is too late to counter it)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the DC is under your passive arcana (10+intelligence(arcana) bonus), you don't have to spend that reaction.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can choose to cast counterspell as part of that reaction. You know what you rolled (so if you roll a 20, you know the spell is at least 6th level).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The DC to counter a spell is 5 times the spell's <em>slot</em> level. You always have to make a check, there are no automatic counterspells.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">At higher levels: you gain a +4 bonus to your check for every slot level higher than 3.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You cannot cast two spells at the same time that use the same components. So if you care casting a spell with a S component, you cannot counterspell a counterspell on your spell.</li> </ul><p>To identify a 9th level spell in time to counter it, it is a DC 28. To counter it, it is DC 45.</p><p></p><p>An abjurer using a 9th level slot with 20 int has a +35 to her counterspell check (10+) (5 int + 6 proficiency + 24 from higher level slot). A non-abjurer has a +29 (needs to roll a 16+).</p><p></p><p>A level 5 wizard with a 18 int has a +4 to the check, and countering a level 3 fireball is DC 15, success on a 11+.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>Design notes:</p><p>1. You have to burn your reaction before you commit your slot. But you still get to counter. Baiting counterspells with cantrips works. This also makes it "not free".</p><p></p><p>2. The fact you know the roll (and hence have a floor on the spell level) is an awesome emergent feature. "You don't know what they are casting, but it is a big nasty spell".</p><p></p><p>3. Action economy of counterspell is way too good. Burning an identical resource plus a reaction to shut down an enemy action is stupid strong. The "always roll" and scaling DC means using a higher level slot makes it more reliable, using a lower level slot usually fails, and using an identical level slot an abjurer has a 50-50 chance of succeeding.</p><p></p><p>Burning a 3rd level slot and a reaction for a 50-50 chance to shut down the enemy's 3rd level slot and their action is a powerful move.</p><p></p><p>4. I didn't include the caster's spellcasting modifier for a few reasons. First, it makes the math for the DC easier (and this is already complex). Second, spellcasters primary attribute is already insanely powerful, adding it here makes the problem worse.</p><p></p><p>5. Higher level slots get harder to cast faster than higher level slots make countering stronger intentionally. You can shut down lesser spellcasters easier than you can shut down higher level spellcasters with these rules. Two evenly matched, higher level spellcasters won't be counterspell ping-pong; they will try to counter, but it will only sometimes work.</p><p></p><p>Note that a level 20 bard with glibness and 20 cha has a min counterspell roll of 23.</p><p></p><p>To reliably counter a 9th level spell (DC 45) they need a +22 from the counterspell, or a 9th level spell slot.</p><p></p><p>(Countering an 8th needs an 8th, 7th needs a 6th, 6th needs a 5th, 5th needs a 4th, 4th and lower needs a 3rd.)</p><p></p><p>In comparison, before this, a 20th level bard with glibness and 12 charisma auto-counters every spell with a 3rd level slot.</p><p></p><p>6. The "counter counter" game is reduced to when someone is using a no-S spell, like a power word. Even then, it is reduced because it requires a check. Still, an archmage will be able to power through a level 5 wizards defences.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 8070422, member: 72555"] How about: [LIST] [*]As a reaction you can attempt to identify a spell whose components you can see or hear before the spell goes off. The DC is 10+twice the spell level (not the slot level). (After a spell goes off, the DC is 10+the spell level, but at that point it is too late to counter it) [*]If the DC is under your passive arcana (10+intelligence(arcana) bonus), you don't have to spend that reaction. [*]You can choose to cast counterspell as part of that reaction. You know what you rolled (so if you roll a 20, you know the spell is at least 6th level). [*]The DC to counter a spell is 5 times the spell's [I]slot[/I] level. You always have to make a check, there are no automatic counterspells. [*]At higher levels: you gain a +4 bonus to your check for every slot level higher than 3. [*]You cannot cast two spells at the same time that use the same components. So if you care casting a spell with a S component, you cannot counterspell a counterspell on your spell. [/LIST] To identify a 9th level spell in time to counter it, it is a DC 28. To counter it, it is DC 45. An abjurer using a 9th level slot with 20 int has a +35 to her counterspell check (10+) (5 int + 6 proficiency + 24 from higher level slot). A non-abjurer has a +29 (needs to roll a 16+). A level 5 wizard with a 18 int has a +4 to the check, and countering a level 3 fireball is DC 15, success on a 11+. --- Design notes: 1. You have to burn your reaction before you commit your slot. But you still get to counter. Baiting counterspells with cantrips works. This also makes it "not free". 2. The fact you know the roll (and hence have a floor on the spell level) is an awesome emergent feature. "You don't know what they are casting, but it is a big nasty spell". 3. Action economy of counterspell is way too good. Burning an identical resource plus a reaction to shut down an enemy action is stupid strong. The "always roll" and scaling DC means using a higher level slot makes it more reliable, using a lower level slot usually fails, and using an identical level slot an abjurer has a 50-50 chance of succeeding. Burning a 3rd level slot and a reaction for a 50-50 chance to shut down the enemy's 3rd level slot and their action is a powerful move. 4. I didn't include the caster's spellcasting modifier for a few reasons. First, it makes the math for the DC easier (and this is already complex). Second, spellcasters primary attribute is already insanely powerful, adding it here makes the problem worse. 5. Higher level slots get harder to cast faster than higher level slots make countering stronger intentionally. You can shut down lesser spellcasters easier than you can shut down higher level spellcasters with these rules. Two evenly matched, higher level spellcasters won't be counterspell ping-pong; they will try to counter, but it will only sometimes work. Note that a level 20 bard with glibness and 20 cha has a min counterspell roll of 23. To reliably counter a 9th level spell (DC 45) they need a +22 from the counterspell, or a 9th level spell slot. (Countering an 8th needs an 8th, 7th needs a 6th, 6th needs a 5th, 5th needs a 4th, 4th and lower needs a 3rd.) In comparison, before this, a 20th level bard with glibness and 12 charisma auto-counters every spell with a 3rd level slot. 6. The "counter counter" game is reduced to when someone is using a no-S spell, like a power word. Even then, it is reduced because it requires a check. Still, an archmage will be able to power through a level 5 wizards defences. [/QUOTE]
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