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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MostlyHarmless42" data-source="post: 7921456" data-attributes="member: 6845520">I concur with the comments about counterspell being clearly defined about someone needing to see the spell being cast. So yes, in the event you can cast a spell without a verbal component and the would be counterspeller is unaware of your presence I do in fact rule that they can't counterspell. For me it's all about mechanical costs vs. benefits, if a player spends the time and effect hiding or spends a spell slot (i.e. invisibility, or counterspelling a counterspell to ensure their original spell gets off, so be it). In regards to the double counterspell thing, I often find in actual play what tends to happen far more often is it is the monsters doing the second counterspell to ensure a big aoe spell goes off on the party, in which case I look to the player and say, "look on the bright side, you've prevented the enemy from casting another fireball or worse". Quite valuable in a game where action economy is key.As for the age old arguement about doing stuff like deception checks or the like to hide spell components/gestures/etc. I bring up that my main concern is not making subtle spell worthless or stepping on the toes of the sorcerer. The ENTIRE point of it is to cast your spells without getting caught. Yes, it does still allow them to be cast in silence but that is something one should keep in mind. To help mitigate this issue I rule at my table that any spell with a verbal component has a supernatural quality to it. The component itself isn't merely just saying a word, it is speaking it with intent. One can't whisper spellwords. They have a supernatural quality to them that is obvious to even a layman that something magical is happening. The average commoner may not know the difference between a healing spell or a fireball, but that something is happening. That's where an arcana check comes in to learn more.Not obviously rules as written, but I'd argue this was their intent with the game. You are more than welcome to allow casters to do stuff like hide spells or feint casting a spell. The latter is less problematic, though I'd allow either an Insight or Arcana check to see through their deception attempt either way, and in any world where hiding magic is common any town worth their salt would have guards or mages specifically trained to be vigilant watching for such spellcaster deceptions. Like every town would have an apprentice mage at minimum accompanying a ruler at all times.  ..worldbuilding implications aside, it's mainly a concern with what is more fun at your table and not screwing over a player who decides to pick sorcerer with subtle spell by letting every bard or wizard do it for free.</blockquote>

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