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Counterspell what do people think?
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<blockquote data-quote="WaterRabbit" data-source="post: 7644305" data-attributes="member: 2445"><p>So, here is how I know that you are engaged in either a white room discussion or you have a very uncommon encounter design environment -- either way these are edge cases.</p><p></p><p>So, while bards can cast counterspell, it is not on their list of allowed spells. So they have to acquire it through Magical Secrets (10th level, 14th level, 18th level) or Lore Bard through Additional Magical Secrets (more likely). However, for a Bard to choose this spell, opportunities to cast this must be very common or they wouldn't bother (this is even more true for a Sorcerer/Warlock) as the are still limited in the total number of spells they can know. As counterspell is very situational, the encounter design for your game makes this a worthwhile spell to take. It also assumes that the NPC spellcasters aren't smart enough to know how to keep from being counterspelled.</p><p></p><p>Wizards and Oath of Redemption Paladins (at 9th level) are much more likely to have this spell on hand.</p><p></p><p>So again, either your campaign is out at the margins of play, or you are just theorycrafting to nerf as spell that already has an opportunity cost and is trivially countered by opponents that know they can be countered.</p><p></p><p>For example, at the levels you are talking about for counterspelling to really be a thing for all of the different classes you are carrying in your theoretical party, Greater Invisibility (while a concentration spell) completely shuts down Counterspell. So your theoretical party now has to have cast See Invisibility within the last hour or spend an action during combat to cast it so they can then Counterspell.</p><p></p><p>A cantrip Minor Illusion can accomplish the same thing for a time -- create an illusionary wall for example. The caster knows it is an illusion and therefore can see through it. Otherwise, it requires an action or physical examination to gain the same benefit. </p><p></p><p>All it takes is to prevent your opponent from seeing you while you can still see them and counterspell become worthless. So unless all of your encounters take place in an arena without cover, it is literally trivial to prevent counterspell.</p><p></p><p>It seems to me that there is a lack of imagination going on in your games if counterspell is such a problem. Especially since the ways to counter it should be methods casters take anyway since archers are way more dangerous to casters than counterspell.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="WaterRabbit, post: 7644305, member: 2445"] So, here is how I know that you are engaged in either a white room discussion or you have a very uncommon encounter design environment -- either way these are edge cases. So, while bards can cast counterspell, it is not on their list of allowed spells. So they have to acquire it through Magical Secrets (10th level, 14th level, 18th level) or Lore Bard through Additional Magical Secrets (more likely). However, for a Bard to choose this spell, opportunities to cast this must be very common or they wouldn't bother (this is even more true for a Sorcerer/Warlock) as the are still limited in the total number of spells they can know. As counterspell is very situational, the encounter design for your game makes this a worthwhile spell to take. It also assumes that the NPC spellcasters aren't smart enough to know how to keep from being counterspelled. Wizards and Oath of Redemption Paladins (at 9th level) are much more likely to have this spell on hand. So again, either your campaign is out at the margins of play, or you are just theorycrafting to nerf as spell that already has an opportunity cost and is trivially countered by opponents that know they can be countered. For example, at the levels you are talking about for counterspelling to really be a thing for all of the different classes you are carrying in your theoretical party, Greater Invisibility (while a concentration spell) completely shuts down Counterspell. So your theoretical party now has to have cast See Invisibility within the last hour or spend an action during combat to cast it so they can then Counterspell. A cantrip Minor Illusion can accomplish the same thing for a time -- create an illusionary wall for example. The caster knows it is an illusion and therefore can see through it. Otherwise, it requires an action or physical examination to gain the same benefit. All it takes is to prevent your opponent from seeing you while you can still see them and counterspell become worthless. So unless all of your encounters take place in an arena without cover, it is literally trivial to prevent counterspell. It seems to me that there is a lack of imagination going on in your games if counterspell is such a problem. Especially since the ways to counter it should be methods casters take anyway since archers are way more dangerous to casters than counterspell. [/QUOTE]
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