Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
Howdy!
So, one of those staples that shows up in fiction is the mage duel. Books, anime, manga, movies... it's a great idea. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have made it to D&D in a particularly satisfying or easy fashion. There's been suggestions and ideas before, but I figured I'd float one that I don't recall hearing and see what people think.
Now, in order to make sure we're all on the same page, let's be clear on the actual premise I'm operating from...
1. A link to the actual counterspelling rules:
Casting Spells :: d20srd.org
2. A link to the "Players roll all the dice" variant rule:
Players Roll All The Dice :: d20srd.org
3. A link to the feat "Combat Reflexes":
Feats :: d20srd.org
4. A link to the rules regarding Attacks of Opportunity:
Attacks Of Opportunity :: d20srd.org
So the basic idea is actually kinda simple. I'm a fan of dumping Saving Throws and having them be defense scores like Armor. And it occured to me that maybe Counterspelling could be the same deal.
You've got a base number of 11, add a modifier to it, and that becomes your Counterspelling score. When a caster cranks off a spell, they make an "attack roll". If that roll beats the Counterspell defense, it means they've cranked the spell off well enough and/or fast enough that the opposing mage(s) can't react quick enough. Spell then goes off as normal, saving throws, people crying and dying... whatever.
On the other hand, if the roll _doesn't_ beat the Counterspelling defense, then the mage(s) on the opposing side have the _option_ to counterspell. A mage can only crank off 1 counterspell in a round, unless they have Combat Reflexes. Counterspelling is basically kinda acting like an AoO, it's just got the simple provoke action of "casting a spell".
And how _does_ the counterspelling mage actually counterspell? Simple. The say, "Yeah, I've got that spell, so I'm countering that sucker." or "Yeah, I'll go ahead and counter it with a Dispel Magic". They mark the spell of and it's done. No muss, no fuss.
Obviously if you use the saving throws as a defense option, this will integrate right in; I don't think it'd be especially disruptive if you don't though.
There are a couple of question marks with the above idea I admit. The first is, "What exactly is the pseudo-attack-roll that the mage casting the spell makes, actually relying on? BaB? Because if so, that's kinda screwing mages since they have crap BaB to begin with". The second question mark, which really ties into the first is, "What is that 'modifier' that's being added to 11, which you so blithely mention but don't actually define?"
I'm not 100% sure actually. I haven't looked at the maths, so I can't definitively say. The "easy" or "logical" approach would be to use the Spellcraft skill as the modifier. Mage casting roll is d20+Spellcraft. Mage defense is 11+Spellcraft.
Another option is relying on a Stat; Int for wizardly types, Wis for divine types, Cha for innate sorcerer types.
A third option is to simply rely on caster level.
A fourth option is to simply rely on _character_ level (a potentially distinct difference from option 3).
Another potential question is "What do you do if the mage _already_ has to make an attack roll? Are you going for a double-jeopardy?" My inclination is to say "If they have to make an attack roll for the spell, that's going to be compared to the defense (AC, Fort/Ref/Will/whatever) as well as the Counterspell Defense."
So, roll a crappy to hit and basically every mage can see the spell that's comin' and decide if they want to pre-emptively nuke it or not.
That's pretty much the core idea. I'm trying for something simple and easy, that's not going to mess so much with the "action economy" and hopefully doesn't slow things up too much either. It's functionally rather similar to the "real" rules that are already in place, it just is changing the ... focus?... of them slightly.
The idea just popped up for me, but the apparent...ease? elegance?... of it and the fact that I don't recall hearing of it before, makes me nervous. Like I'm missing something blindly obvious to everyone else and it's already been beaten into the ground years ago.
Comments, suggestions?
So, one of those staples that shows up in fiction is the mage duel. Books, anime, manga, movies... it's a great idea. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have made it to D&D in a particularly satisfying or easy fashion. There's been suggestions and ideas before, but I figured I'd float one that I don't recall hearing and see what people think.
Now, in order to make sure we're all on the same page, let's be clear on the actual premise I'm operating from...
1. A link to the actual counterspelling rules:
Casting Spells :: d20srd.org
2. A link to the "Players roll all the dice" variant rule:
Players Roll All The Dice :: d20srd.org
3. A link to the feat "Combat Reflexes":
Feats :: d20srd.org
4. A link to the rules regarding Attacks of Opportunity:
Attacks Of Opportunity :: d20srd.org
So the basic idea is actually kinda simple. I'm a fan of dumping Saving Throws and having them be defense scores like Armor. And it occured to me that maybe Counterspelling could be the same deal.
You've got a base number of 11, add a modifier to it, and that becomes your Counterspelling score. When a caster cranks off a spell, they make an "attack roll". If that roll beats the Counterspell defense, it means they've cranked the spell off well enough and/or fast enough that the opposing mage(s) can't react quick enough. Spell then goes off as normal, saving throws, people crying and dying... whatever.
On the other hand, if the roll _doesn't_ beat the Counterspelling defense, then the mage(s) on the opposing side have the _option_ to counterspell. A mage can only crank off 1 counterspell in a round, unless they have Combat Reflexes. Counterspelling is basically kinda acting like an AoO, it's just got the simple provoke action of "casting a spell".
And how _does_ the counterspelling mage actually counterspell? Simple. The say, "Yeah, I've got that spell, so I'm countering that sucker." or "Yeah, I'll go ahead and counter it with a Dispel Magic". They mark the spell of and it's done. No muss, no fuss.
Obviously if you use the saving throws as a defense option, this will integrate right in; I don't think it'd be especially disruptive if you don't though.
There are a couple of question marks with the above idea I admit. The first is, "What exactly is the pseudo-attack-roll that the mage casting the spell makes, actually relying on? BaB? Because if so, that's kinda screwing mages since they have crap BaB to begin with". The second question mark, which really ties into the first is, "What is that 'modifier' that's being added to 11, which you so blithely mention but don't actually define?"
I'm not 100% sure actually. I haven't looked at the maths, so I can't definitively say. The "easy" or "logical" approach would be to use the Spellcraft skill as the modifier. Mage casting roll is d20+Spellcraft. Mage defense is 11+Spellcraft.
Another option is relying on a Stat; Int for wizardly types, Wis for divine types, Cha for innate sorcerer types.
A third option is to simply rely on caster level.
A fourth option is to simply rely on _character_ level (a potentially distinct difference from option 3).
Another potential question is "What do you do if the mage _already_ has to make an attack roll? Are you going for a double-jeopardy?" My inclination is to say "If they have to make an attack roll for the spell, that's going to be compared to the defense (AC, Fort/Ref/Will/whatever) as well as the Counterspell Defense."
So, roll a crappy to hit and basically every mage can see the spell that's comin' and decide if they want to pre-emptively nuke it or not.
That's pretty much the core idea. I'm trying for something simple and easy, that's not going to mess so much with the "action economy" and hopefully doesn't slow things up too much either. It's functionally rather similar to the "real" rules that are already in place, it just is changing the ... focus?... of them slightly.
The idea just popped up for me, but the apparent...ease? elegance?... of it and the fact that I don't recall hearing of it before, makes me nervous. Like I'm missing something blindly obvious to everyone else and it's already been beaten into the ground years ago.
Comments, suggestions?
