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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shalewind" data-source="post: 866096" data-attributes="member: 6146">Well, Tom, I have yet to see you reply here. It seems to me, you wanted a rally support for the broken-ness of CdG only to find the consenus was the opposite. I'm still curious as to your opinions on what these people have said and wheter or not you still consider the rule to be overpowered.But since you wanted to talk about the rule itself... Absolutely. This is the world of Dnd where you can cast such spells such as disintigrate and ressurection. You are making in argument with this statement that the rat killing the king is either unrealistic or illogical. In either case, that isn't basis for the CdG to be broken. DnD is NOT realistic and while it tries to follow logic, magic itself breaks logic. I've seen horror movies where a small cat kills a grown man because it goes for his mouth. I didn't believe it was possible IRL, but for the horror movie...Again, you are dealing with a mystical world. There are several ways in which to prevent a CdG on sleeping creatures. First of all, listen checks and watchers. I have NEVER played with a party, (and I mean EVER) in which when we were in a foriegn place DIDN'T set watches. If I lived in a world with magical and undead beasts roaming the forests I would never sleep alone or without a watch schedual. Alarm isn't the only way to beat enemies sneaking up on characters. And this has nothing to do with CdG being broken. For instance, if I were to say dropping lava on a character does an large ammount of damage and might be over powered, I don't question that the damage the lava did was over-powered, I'd question the ability to drop the lava in the first place. In this case, CdG is the lava. CdG means you need total surprise and a helpless enemy. Pretty strict rules, and since I think killing a person via CdG would make noise in and of itself, it usually only works once. A Gant? Seriously? Okay, well this is better for house rules, but I'd say a gnat was incapable of doing damage to a PC. Second, yes you have a valid point in that a +0 Fort save character against a 1 damage creature max faces a DC 11 or die on a CdG when helpless (55% chance). Is that a little silly? Sure. That is the EXTREME end of the spectrum and extremes never work well to prove a point. Personally, if you have a problem with all this small low damage creature non-sense I'd say you need a "melee" (not-natural) weapon to use CdG. (Props to Drawmack) Non-magic users don't have to sleep? Well, that's besides the point. Again you claim CdG is broken because people sleep? I could just as easily argue that good ambush tactics and such are broken because people sleep. Even without CdG. If I sneak up on a sleeping party with a bunch of kolbolds whom can't be seen or heard or smelled (yeah right! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />) and I get a surprise round and the party doesn't have their armor on? Dead party. This doesn't mean kolbolds are broken (well maybe ones that don't make noise, can't be seen, and can't be smelled... Hmmm....) Perhaps the issue is with the sneaking ability of the party, no? Sure, don't use rules for CdG. As for stupid ammount of damage... Okay, just let CdG count as a normal hit. (This really belongs in House Rules) Personally, I use a modified system for CdG in most of my games. If a peasant slits the throat of a 20th level character (a feat that would be very difficult, but not impossible with a little help from some awesome mages... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />) they are pretty much dead regardless of their fort save.</blockquote>

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