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<blockquote data-quote="Hypersmurf" data-source="post: 1264669" data-attributes="member: 1656">Notice that several of the conditions on the table of Attack Modifiers are relative to the defender.You only get the +2 bonus for flanking if you are flanking the defender.&nbsp; You only get the +1 higher ground bonus if you are on higher ground relative to the defender.&nbsp; Just being &quot;on higher ground&quot; is of no use if the defender is &quot;on higher ground&quot; as well.Similarly, it could be contended that if the defender can see invisible, you are invisible, but not with respect to the defender.Certainly disagree there.Losing Dex bonus is something that affects the defender.&nbsp; Since the attacker's invisibility is irrelevant, he doesn't lose his Dex bonus.The +2 bonus, being an effect upon the attacker, not the defender, is arguable.&nbsp; But whether the defender loses his Dex bonus or not must be the same whether or not the attacker is invisible.&nbsp; Any other result would mean that the invisibility has relevance... which it explicitly doesn't.Except that they clearly stated that the invisibility is irrelevant to the Blindsighted defender.I've never argued against a hidden attacker denying the deender his Dex bonus; just against the attacker gaining the +2 bonus for being invisible.There would have been a stronger case for Uncanny Dodge working in 3E, where many of the total concealment conditions were directly related to invisibility.&nbsp; A blind character treated his attackers as invisible; a character turning his back (per the Gaze Attack rules) treated his target as invisible; therefore Blindfight and Uncanny Dodge allowed a blind character to retain his Dex bonus.In 3.5, those effects are not related back to invisibility; instead, they grant the attacker total concealment, which isn't covered by Blindfight and Uncanny Dodge.So, ironically, 3.5 Blindfight doesn't necessarily let you retain your Dex bonus while... fighting blind.&nbsp; (It does still, of course, grant the reduced miss chance in combat, so it still helps a blind combatant some.)-Hyp.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hypersmurf, post: 1264669, member: 1656"] Notice that several of the conditions on the table of Attack Modifiers are [i]relative to the defender[/i]. You only get the +2 bonus for flanking if you are flanking the defender. You only get the +1 higher ground bonus if you are on higher ground relative to the defender. Just being "on higher ground" is of no use if the defender is "on higher ground" as well. Similarly, it could be contended that if the defender can see invisible, you are invisible, but not with respect to the defender. Certainly disagree there. Losing Dex bonus is something that affects the defender. Since the attacker's invisibility is irrelevant, he doesn't lose his Dex bonus. The +2 bonus, being an effect upon the attacker, not the defender, is arguable. But whether the defender loses his Dex bonus or not must be the same whether or not the attacker is invisible. Any other result would mean that the invisibility has relevance... which it explicitly doesn't. Except that they clearly stated that the invisibility is irrelevant to the Blindsighted defender. I've never argued against a hidden attacker denying the deender his Dex bonus; just against the attacker gaining the +2 bonus for being invisible. There would have been a stronger case for Uncanny Dodge working in 3E, where many of the total concealment conditions [i]were[/i] directly related to invisibility. A blind character treated his attackers as invisible; a character turning his back (per the Gaze Attack rules) treated his target as invisible; therefore Blindfight and Uncanny Dodge allowed a blind character to retain his Dex bonus. In 3.5, those effects are [i]not[/i] related back to invisibility; instead, they grant the attacker total concealment, which [i]isn't[/i] covered by Blindfight and Uncanny Dodge. So, ironically, 3.5 Blindfight doesn't necessarily let you retain your Dex bonus while... fighting blind. (It does still, of course, grant the reduced miss chance in combat, so it still helps a blind combatant some.) -Hyp. [/QUOTE]

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