D&D 5E CR and NPC HD in a low level world

[MrHotter]

My campaign world has a level 10 player cap. It's similar to the Dragonlance world level cap.

The players are forced to explore different planes or find small pockets of high magic in the world to advance past level 10.

I want a player fighter that is level 10 to be seen like a Lancealot type, but that brings up some issues when limiting NPCs to CR 10. It would be possible for a CR 8 to 10 NPC be tougher than a max level player character in my game. I don't want that to happen unless I can justify a reason as to why a single humanoid NPC could challenge an entire party (like having some kind of divine power).

Does anyone have any advice for what CRs would be a good match for a single player character at level 10? Currently, I'm using PC stats to make the elites of the realm (archmages, king's champions, king of the pirates), but that's not the easiest way to create NPCs. I'm not even sure what the CR of a level 10 player character would be.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Dragonlance has a level cap?

Don't limit NPCs by CR. Do it by Hit Dice. Hit Dice are what governs access to spell levels, after all, and you wouldn't want the CR 9 archmage to be the only one with level 9 spells.

 

[MrHotter]

Dragonlance has a level cap?

Don't limit NPCs by CR. Do it by Hit Dice. Hit Dice are what governs access to spell levels, after all, and you wouldn't want the CR 9 archmage to be the only one with level 9 spells.

I was thinking about using HD. The thing is, the CR can vary widely depending on other factors besides HD. A CR 5 gladiator has 15 HD, and a CR 6 mage has 9 HD. It does seem like it would work somewhat for my campaign. A level 9 spellcaster sounds like a more worthy adversary than a big bag of hps.

I actually did keep the gladiator stats for the nephew of the Barovian shopkeeper, but I made him a half-giant to help rationalize his HD and to help the level 3 players realize it would be a bad idea to fight him.

 

[Quickleaf]

My campaign world has a level 10 player cap. It's similar to the Dragonlance world level cap.

The players are forced to explore different planes or find small pockets of high magic in the world to advance past level 10.

I want a player fighter that is level 10 to be seen like a Lancealot type, but that brings up some issues when limiting NPCs to CR 10. It would be possible for a CR 8 to 10 NPC be tougher than a max level player character in my game. I don't want that to happen unless I can justify a reason as to why a single humanoid NPC could challenge an entire party (like having some kind of divine power).

Does anyone have any advice for what CRs would be a good match for a single player character at level 10? Currently, I'm using PC stats to make the elites of the realm (archmages, king's champions, king of the pirates), but that's not the easiest way to create NPCs. I'm not even sure what the CR of a level 10 player character would be.

First thing you've got to understand is you're attempting to use the CR system in a way it wasn't designed for. Specifically:

(1) It wasn't designed for 1 player vs. 1 monster.
(2) It wasn't designed to equate PC class level to CR in any way whatsoever.

So, first, I would turn this question around and ask "what do you hope to achieve by implementing a 10th level cap on PCs?" Is it to enforce a certain feel, and if so, what feel is that? Is it because you're concerned about the headache of high-level D&D?

Anyhow, you could always check out Kobold Fight Club and input the variables you're attempting to guesstimate the challenge of a given combat encounter you're planning.

According to that, one 10th level PC might have a solid challenge (hard encounter) against a monster of CR 4 (e.g. orc war chief) or CR 5 (e.g. gorgon).

Now, IME when doing NPCs on the fly, you can very very roughly use the following guidelines to equate an NPC designed using PHB class levels to a monster CR:

1/2 Primary Spellcaster level = CR
1/3 Non-spellcaster level = CR

However, this is a rule-of-thumb that is very easily disrupted. For example, you can make two 12th-level wizard-esque NPCs, one built with a lot of evocation magic & optimized spells, and one built with lots of abjurations and enchantments, and the evoker will likely exceed my guidelines, while the abjurer/enchanter will likely fall below them.

 

[MrHotter]

So, first, I would turn this question around and ask "what do you hope to achieve by implementing a 10th level cap on PCs?" Is it to enforce a certain feel, and if so, what feel is that? Is it because you're concerned about the headache of high-level D&D?

It's mostly for the feel. I prefer having a world where the players can be chased out of a town by an angry mob, but also be able to challenge a renowned duelist and feel they have a chance to win.

If my campaign goes past level 10 it involves traveling to the Feywild, Shadowfel, or the Underdark. That's almost unheard for the people of my world.

 

[Xeviat]

CR doesn't match up to levels. Unless you want NPC humanoids to be tougher than the PCs, you won't want them to be CR 10. Look at the encounter calculator. A party of 4 level 10 PCs facing off against 4 enemies has a x2 xp multiplier. That means the XP roughly appropriate for a 1 on 1 fight should be half the listed xp for a single PC. I don't have the table handy.


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[MrHotter]

CR doesn't match up to levels. Unless you want NPC humanoids to be tougher than the PCs, you won't want them to be CR 10. Look at the encounter calculator. A party of 4 level 10 PCs facing off against 4 enemies has a x2 xp multiplier. That means the XP roughly appropriate for a 1 on 1 fight should be half the listed xp for a single PC. I don't have the table handy.


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It looks like for a single level 10 player against a single adversary it would be a CR 4 for medium difficulty and CR 5 for hard. So for my game I should keep standard NPCs bellow CR 5 in the common areas of the world unless there is a reason why they could have amazing abilities (possesed, undead, etc).

 

[S'mon]

The MM Mage casts as Wiz-9 and is CR 6. I suspect max CR of a 10th level PC would be in the 7-8 range. I suggest you cap casting at 10th level and cap NPC CR at 7 or 8.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

The MM Mage casts as Wiz-9 and is CR 6. I suspect max CR of a 10th level PC would be in the 7-8 range. I suggest you cap casting at 10th level and cap NPC CR at 7 or 8.

My DM recently threw a group against me that included that MM Mage. Unfortunately as a 6th level character who was separated from his party, I had no chance. The DM had the Mage upcast Sleep and took out my 54 HP character before I could even act.

So my suggestion is to also not just be aware of the CR of the enemy, but also keep in mind the abilities. Another example would be a Carrion Crawler. Its an easy CR2 that a Level 10 should have no trouble with...unless he fails the save and is slowly eaten to death. Without any teammates to help him any sort of debilitating "CC" ability will cause massive problems.