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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3276228" data-attributes="member: 4937">I don't think he's exageratting.&nbsp; I think that's a pretty spot on analysis.<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">The CRs are more often wrong than not. &nbsp; My experience as well.</li>
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<li data-xf-list-type="ul">They're wrong for all PC and NPC characters&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; In addition to some bad guidelines, there is simply too much that goes into a character build to claim any claim that a character of any class and of any level and of any build is the same challenge as any other class of any other build of that same level.</li>
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<li data-xf-list-type="ul">they're wrong for nearly all dragons&nbsp; Not only are they wrong, but they are deliberately wrong which is one of the few boneheaded moves that the 3rd edition designers made.</li>
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<li data-xf-list-type="ul">they're clearly wrong when you compare monsters from the original Monster Manual to ones from MM2 or MM3 that supposedly have the same CR&nbsp; There has been CR creep as monsters get more powerful for a given CR.</li>
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<li data-xf-list-type="ul">and once you get to CRs higher than 20, they might as well be pulled out of a hat. The best anyone can say is that one monster is probably more powerful than some other, but I don't think anyone knows enough about high level play and enough definitive can be said about high level play with the diversity of player ability and its absolutes to suggest anyone knows whether something is CR 26 or CR 28.</li>
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<li data-xf-list-type="ul">And that's just the really big obvious ones (without even getting into side stuff like Monsters of Faerun), many of the other ones are far less egregious, but still off.&nbsp; For example of the more subtle problems, like so much of D20 the CR system breaks down because the power increase in D&amp;D isn't linear but the measurement is.&nbsp; A CR3 is supposedly twice as deadly as a CR1 (in practice its probably more so), but two CR 26's would probably overwhelm a CR 28.&nbsp; So how do you measure what a CR 28 is, or for that matter a CR 18.&nbsp; There are just all sort of ways that the system needs tweaking and DM judgement.</li>
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[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 3276228, member: 4937"] I don't think he's exageratting. I think that's a pretty spot on analysis. [list][I]The CRs are more often wrong than not. [/I] My experience as well.[/list] [list][i]They're wrong for all PC and NPC characters[/i] Yes. In addition to some bad guidelines, there is simply too much that goes into a character build to claim any claim that a character of any class and of any level and of any build is the same challenge as any other class of any other build of that same level.[/list] [list][i]they're wrong for nearly all dragons[/i] Not only are they wrong, but they are deliberately wrong which is one of the few boneheaded moves that the 3rd edition designers made.[/list] [list][i]they're clearly wrong when you compare monsters from the original Monster Manual to ones from MM2 or MM3 that supposedly have the same CR[/i] There has been CR creep as monsters get more powerful for a given CR.[/list] [list][i]and once you get to CRs higher than 20, they might as well be pulled out of a hat.[/i] The best anyone can say is that one monster is probably more powerful than some other, but I don't think anyone knows enough about high level play and enough definitive can be said about high level play with the diversity of player ability and its absolutes to suggest anyone knows whether something is CR 26 or CR 28.[/list] [list][i]And that's just the really big obvious ones (without even getting into side stuff like Monsters of Faerun), many of the other ones are far less egregious, but still off.[/i] For example of the more subtle problems, like so much of D20 the CR system breaks down because the power increase in D&D isn't linear but the measurement is. A CR3 is supposedly twice as deadly as a CR1 (in practice its probably more so), but two CR 26's would probably overwhelm a CR 28. So how do you measure what a CR 28 is, or for that matter a CR 18. There are just all sort of ways that the system needs tweaking and DM judgement.[/list] [/QUOTE]

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