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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3277148" data-attributes="member: 4937">Agreed.&nbsp; In fact, the situation is worse if the NPC is a support class or generalist like Bard or Monk.&nbsp; At best, the CR of a class like that might be ECL - 1.&nbsp; My experience is that is being generous.And that ignores the biggest problem.&nbsp; We are no longer in a situation like 1st edition where any two 8th level fighters were roughly equivalent except for hitpoints and possibly the possession of a magic item (both things which were taken into account in the 1st edition XP system).&nbsp;&nbsp; Depending on the build, the point buy, the min-maxing, and the equipment the CR of an 8th level fighter could be roughly anywhere between about 7 and about 3.&nbsp; And you can't claim that an 8th level NPC's fighter's CR is that high based on the expected equipment, because if the NPC fighter had as much equipment as the PC fighter then after each EL 8 encounter, the party would increase its treasure by roughly 25% - and that's well above the guidelines for expected treasure per encounter.&nbsp; To be balanced 8th ECL level NPC's of playable races should provide the same ammount of expected treasure as any other CR 8 creature.And don't get me started on the CR of mooks.&nbsp; Doubling the number of mooks doesn't increase the CR by 2 if the parties ECL is more than a couple levels about the parties CR.&nbsp; Four gnolls is not a CR 5 challenge.&nbsp;&nbsp; Eight gnolls isn't even close to CR 7, much less close to the threat of a CR 7 dragon.&nbsp; Versus four 7th level PC's, eight gnolls are roughly CR 4 and a CR 7 dragon is probably closer to CR 9.&nbsp; Which brings me to my other point.&nbsp; Challenges are relative to the party level.&nbsp; As characters go up in level, they obtain gross abilities like flight and fireball and extremely high AC's which suddenly rather than incrementally make former challenges relatively easier.&nbsp;&nbsp; For example, the difference between a physical monster needing a 18 to hit and needing a 20 to hit is the monster is suddenly 1/3rd as dangerous.&nbsp; Suddenly that horde of mooks has to triple in size to maintain the same relative challenge, and thats to say nothing of what happens when the party can throw fireballs ruetinely.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 3277148, member: 4937"] Agreed. In fact, the situation is worse if the NPC is a support class or generalist like Bard or Monk. At [I]best[/I], the CR of a class like that might be ECL - 1. My experience is that is being generous. And that ignores the biggest problem. We are no longer in a situation like 1st edition where any two 8th level fighters were roughly equivalent except for hitpoints and possibly the possession of a magic item (both things which were taken into account in the 1st edition XP system). Depending on the build, the point buy, the min-maxing, and the equipment the CR of an 8th level fighter could be roughly anywhere between about 7 and about 3. And you can't claim that an 8th level NPC's fighter's CR is that high based on the expected equipment, because if the NPC fighter had as much equipment as the PC fighter then after each EL 8 encounter, the party would increase its treasure by roughly 25% - and that's well above the guidelines for expected treasure per encounter. To be balanced 8th ECL level NPC's of playable races should provide the same ammount of expected treasure as any other CR 8 creature. And don't get me started on the CR of mooks. Doubling the number of mooks doesn't increase the CR by 2 if the parties ECL is more than a couple levels about the parties CR. Four gnolls is not a CR 5 challenge. Eight gnolls isn't even close to CR 7, much less close to the threat of a CR 7 dragon. Versus four 7th level PC's, eight gnolls are roughly CR 4 and a CR 7 dragon is probably closer to CR 9. Which brings me to my other point. Challenges are relative to the party level. As characters go up in level, they obtain gross abilities like flight and fireball and extremely high AC's which suddenly rather than incrementally make former challenges relatively easier. For example, the difference between a physical monster needing a 18 to hit and needing a 20 to hit is the monster is suddenly 1/3rd as dangerous. Suddenly that horde of mooks has to triple in size to maintain the same relative challenge, and thats to say nothing of what happens when the party can throw fireballs ruetinely. [/QUOTE]

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