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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3281420" data-attributes="member: 4937">Yes.  Or rather, that is the intention.  It is only useful if it is a concrete measurement of combat expectation.But, in admitting that you seem to have given away the whole 'game' to start with.  If you say CR is only useful as a concete mathematical measurement of combat expectation, then it would seem your whole argument with me falls apart. I'm not missing them at all.  I'm merely pointing out that they don't have alot of impact on a concrete measurement of combat expectation.  By your own standards of what CR is for, factors that don't have a concrete impact on combat expectation can basically be discounted as far as CR is concerned.Well, yes, but this has nothing to do with anything in particular except that a creature with abilities that are broad rather than deep probably shouldn't have its CR bumped up as much, particularly if those additional abilities don't have a concrete impact on combat expectation.If I may summerize what you are going with here, a creatures ECL and LA can be higher than its CR because they may have abilities with a long term and ongoing impact that don't relate to combat expectation.  For example healing hits per hour is a greating for a character, but not that important to CR.  Or for an extreme example, a Craft (pottery) skill of +20 may well be useful, but it doesn't do much to increase a characters CR.  But none of that suggests I'm confused about what CR measures, and instead suggests you are confusing LA and CR. Sure.  Because it only gets a certain number of actions per round.  But again, this has nothing to do with CR, because as you said CR is a concrete measurement of combat expectation and not a measurement of general fitness the way ECL or LA is.So, after beginning this little essay of yours with the thesis 'CR is a concrete measurement of combat expectation', and after providing evidence to that effect, you then proceed from there to the conclusion that CR is not in fact a measurement of combat expectation???  How in the world do you think that follows?  For that matter, what makes you think that a creatures special abilities which could give it an advantage in combat situations (that is through tactics) aren't part of the combat expectations? Are you saying that the ability to fly doesn't potentially have an impact on combat which would increase the creatures CR?  Where the heck do you get that?   Any creature which has a movement mode or rate which can give it a significant tactical advantage qualifies for having its CR bumped up to reflect that increased challenge.   Conversely, creatures like a zombie or a gelatinous cube have thier CR knocked down a bit because of thier poor movement rate and limited tactical ability.  Either potentially qualifies as having a higher CR if they had a superior movement rate or mode (flying fast moving gelatinous cubes are more dangerous, ei have higher combat expectations, than slow moving oozing ones).   But how that hurts my argument rather than yours I have no idea.</blockquote>

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