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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3281474" data-attributes="member: 4937">Yes I know.  Everyone here knows that.  There isn't a person here that doesn't know that.Yes, I know.  Everyone here knows that.  There isn't a person here that doesn't know that.Yes, I know.  Everyone here knows that.  There isn't a person here that doesn't know that.  All of this is a given.  Why do you persist in repeating it, especially when it really doesn't have a bearing on what is being discussed.In case you don't know, what is being discussed is whether all things which by the rules are CR 8 encounters are in fact CR 8 encounters.  In other words, if you go by the rules are there not infact CR 8 encounters which are not only easier than other supposed CR 8 encounters, but in fact much easier so that they consistantly require the expenditure of less resources than some other group of stock encounters that we all agree as CR 8.  For these purpose, I don't really care what group of stock encounters you agree are CR 8, I can always show that there are another group of encounters which in the general case are either much harder or much easier than the ones you've chosen. No.  It's not.  More actions is linearly more useful.  Having a higher AC and higher saving throws is within limits (nearly) exponentially more useful, because the difference between failing on a 2 or less and failing only on a 1 is much bigger than the difference between failing on a 10 or less and failing only on a 9 or less.  Having a higher BAB is within a limit (nearly) exponentially more useful for the same reason.  Having all these things together is exponentially more useful, which is why a 10th level character is more than twice as powerful as a 5th level character.  But having more actions is only linearly more useful.This is pretty easy to demonstrate in the simple case.  A monster with one claw attack does half the expected damage of the same monster with two claw attacks, and one third that of the same monster with three claw attacks.  This is linear relationship.  With a stone giant?  The DEX 15, boulder tossing expert, stone giant?PC: I quaff a potion.Stone Giant: Big rock to the head! Big rock to the head!PC: I fly out of the giants reach and ready my bow.Stone Giant: Big rock to the head! Big rock to the head!PC: Full attack action with my bow!Stone Giant: Big rock to the head! Big rock to the head!PC (looking a little more worn than not so long ago):  Maybe I should rethink this tactic.Besides which, that's not the point.  The point is that compared to the general class of CR 8 challenges, the CR 8 PC classed, PC race, NPC is a weaker than expected challenge (sometimes much weaker) for the various reasons previously mentioned.No of course not.  Nor can it take into account party composition.  But I never claimed that it could.  Presumably for some parties a challenge is easier than others, but by focusing on succeeding at those challenges they've made other challenges of the same general difficulty more difficult.  But neither of those</blockquote>

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