Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3282063" data-attributes="member: 4937">Stop right there.&nbsp; I've written several pages on this and you think that the 'whole of my argument' boils down to one single point?&nbsp; I didn't say that.&nbsp; Yes, it may have a negative impact on the effectiveness of the giant.&nbsp; Yes it might.&nbsp; I was however not responding to a claim that it might have some negative impact on the effectiveness of the stone giant.&nbsp; I was responding to this claim.That claim might have some substance in the case of say a Dire Bear.&nbsp; You could argue that the CR of a Dire Bear might take a hit because of its near absolute vulnerability to a particular tactic (flying ranged attacks).&nbsp; But I don't see how you can argue that in the case of the stone giant.&nbsp; My point there was that the Stone Giant is not nearly so helpless in the face of a flying ranged attacker that it could be claimed his strong melee attack is balanced by his 'weak' ranged attack, especially because even the giants 'weak' ranged attack is probably as strong or stronger than most 8th level fighters.That's kinda my impression of your reply, but I'll chalk it up to not making myself clear enough.Agreed.&nbsp; But the secondary ranged attack mode of a 'default' 8th level fighter is probably going to be no stronger than the giants secondary ranged attack given that the giants 'big rock' does 2d8+12 damage.&nbsp; Given the hit point and AC disparity, even a flying 8th level fighter isn't going to win that fight either (though, sure, it will fare better in general than if it went to melee).&nbsp; And, if the 8th level fighter specializes in archery as a primary attack mode so that it is in fact superior in that one area, then its disparity in melee between the fighter and the giant increases accordingly and thus the CR if done correctly must take that into account as well.&nbsp; In short, there is no way around the fact that an 8th level NPC fighter is not nearly the challenge (in general) of a stone giant and most other CR 8 monsters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 3282063, member: 4937"] Stop right there. I've written several pages on this and you think that the 'whole of my argument' boils down to one single point? I didn't say that. Yes, it may have a negative impact on the effectiveness of the giant. Yes it might. I was however not responding to a claim that it might have some negative impact on the effectiveness of the stone giant. I was responding to this claim. That claim might have some substance in the case of say a Dire Bear. You could argue that the CR of a Dire Bear might take a hit because of its near absolute vulnerability to a particular tactic (flying ranged attacks). But I don't see how you can argue that in the case of the stone giant. My point there was that the Stone Giant is not nearly so helpless in the face of a flying ranged attacker that it could be claimed his strong melee attack is balanced by his 'weak' ranged attack, especially because even the giants 'weak' ranged attack is probably as strong or stronger than most 8th level fighters. That's kinda my impression of your reply, but I'll chalk it up to not making myself clear enough. Agreed. But the secondary ranged attack mode of a 'default' 8th level fighter is probably going to be no stronger than the giants secondary ranged attack given that the giants 'big rock' does 2d8+12 damage. Given the hit point and AC disparity, even a flying 8th level fighter isn't going to win that fight either (though, sure, it will fare better in general than if it went to melee). And, if the 8th level fighter specializes in archery as a primary attack mode so that it is in fact superior in that one area, then its disparity in melee between the fighter and the giant increases accordingly and thus the CR if done correctly must take [I]that[/I] into account as well. In short, there is no way around the fact that an 8th level NPC fighter is not nearly the challenge (in general) of a stone giant and most other CR 8 monsters. [/QUOTE]

Verification