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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FireLance" data-source="post: 3282287" data-attributes="member: 3424">A stone giant could take Improved Disarm and Improved Trip, but that requires Combat Expertise and an Intelligence of 13. However, going by the rules, it isn't as easy to switch around the giant's ability scores. Using the standard methods, the elite array increases the giant's CR by 1, and the nonelite array gives a bonus to two ability scores and a penalty to two. We can penalize Wisdom and Charisma, but that means a slightly lower Will save. Since we're min-maxing for combat effectiveness, the other ability bump should probably go to Strength to increase attack and damage rolls, but it could also go to Dexterity to improve AC and missile capability, or Constitution to increase hit points and Fortitude saves.The real problem is that a stone giant only has five feats. After taking Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm and Improved Trip, he only has two available feat slots. If he wants a spiked chain, that's another feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but I think he would be bettter off using a heavy flail (the extra reach doesn't help him that much). If he doesn't take Power Attack, he misses out on the chance to deal extra damage to low-AC foes. If he doesn't take Iron Will, his Will save drops further. Possibly the feat that he afford to give up most easily is Point Blank Shot.So yes, you can build a stone giant to be a better tripper than an 8th-level fighter, at the cost of some abilities that probably don't mean too much. Since you've boosted its combat ability without taking away too much, it's probably closer to a CR 9 than a CR 8 in terms of combat effectiveness. But 9 is just one more than 8.The 8th-level fighter (with the feats and equipment he should have) can attack at +15/+10 against the troll's +9/+9/+4 with the possibility of a rend, deals 2d6+9 damage against the troll's 1d6+6 for claw, 1d6+3 for bite, and 2d6+9 rend, has an AC of 21 against the troll's 16, and has hit points of 81 compared to the troll's 63. The fight has to last four rounds for the troll's regeneration to catch up to the fighter's starting hit points. The difference between the troll and the 8th-level fighter is greater than the difference bewteen the 8th-level fighter and the stone giant. If the fighter is "not even close" to the stone giant, the troll is even less close to the fighter.I'm curious to know what would be the ill effects of using the CR system compared to no system at all. So far, in terms of combat effectiveness, the 8th-level fighter and the stone giant are at most one point off the given CR of 8. If an 8th-level party has a slightly easier time with the fighter and a slightly more difficult time with the stone giant, how does that wreck the game?</blockquote>

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