CR for Succubi

[Chu Li]

Hi folks,

I´m new in town. maybe we can be friends ...

Back to daily routine:
i'm breaking the numbers for some assassins my players are just dying to meet and i've stumbled across the succubus. the stat block says it's got 6HD and a lvl adjustment of +6. doesn't that sum up for a total CR of 12? The block says it's 7 though. Whaddup here? Weird stuff.

thanks

CHU Li

 

[Alzrius]

Hi folks,

I´m new in town. maybe we can be friends ...

Back to daily routine:
i'm breaking the numbers for some assassins my players are just dying to meet and i've stumbled across the succubus. the stat block says it's got 6HD and a lvl adjustment of +6. doesn't that sum up for a total CR of 12? The block says it's 7 though. Whaddup here? Weird stuff.

thanks

CHU Li

Welcome to the boards!

A lot of relatively new players and DMs make the same mistake you're making. Level adjustment doesn't factor into the CR. Not at all. Likewise, a creature's hit dice doesn't necessarily mean anything in regards to its CR (it does have some correlation, but it's not "one hit die equals +1 CR").

Level adjustment is an adjustment used if one of your players wanted to use that succubus as a character. In that case, you'd add the level adjustment and hit dice together to see what level of a character she was. In this case, six hit dice, and a +6 LA means that your average succubus, for intent of how powerful a PC she is, is a 12th-level character. ECL (Effective character level, which is hit dice plus LA) is not at all the same thing as CR.

 

[IcyCool]

Hi folks,

I´m new in town. maybe we can be friends ...

Back to daily routine:
i'm breaking the numbers for some assassins my players are just dying to meet and i've stumbled across the succubus. the stat block says it's got 6HD and a lvl adjustment of +6. doesn't that sum up for a total CR of 12? The block says it's 7 though. Whaddup here? Weird stuff.

thanks

CHU Li

CR and ECL are not the same thing. You don't use level adjustment unless it is going to be played as a PC or is going to be a cohort for a PC.

So as a challenge agains the party, it's CR is 7.

As a PC, it's the equivalent of a 12th level character.

 

[Chu Li]

oh, i see...

that´s very helpful.

so long and thanks for all the fish!

Chu Li

 

[Lamoni]

So as a challenge agains the party, it's CR is 7.

As a PC, it's the equivalent of a 12th level character.

Correct, and that also leads us to the conclusion that putting the party against normal people with class levels gives them too much experience for what the challenge really is.

If the equivalent of a 12th level character is CR 7, doesn't that mean a 12th level dwarven fighter should also be CR 7? I believe that the succubus HD aren't as good as normal PC HD, but is the succubus 6HD only equivalent to 1 PC class HD?

I've just learned not to think about it too hard. Just stick with the CR and let the game continue.

 

[Coredump]

Correct, and that also leads us to the conclusion that putting the party against normal people with class levels gives them too much experience for what the challenge really is.

If the equivalent of a 12th level character is CR 7, doesn't that mean a 12th level dwarven fighter should also be CR 7? I believe that the succubus HD aren't as good as normal PC HD, but is the succubus 6HD only equivalent to 1 PC class HD?

I've just learned not to think about it too hard. Just stick with the CR and let the game continue.

No. See there is a difference between how 'powerful' an ability is for a one time encounter, as opposed to a player character using that ability over and over.

Extreme example. Power of "really-fast-healing" : with one minute of meditation and concentration, you may completely heal all of your damage.

Now, if an Ogre type monster had that power, it wouildn't really change anything about the CR, since it would be just as easy to kill. It will never get a chance to use that power.
BUT.... if a player was playing that race, and got that ability...wow... that would make him much more powerful. Thus that ability may not add to CR, but would add to LA.

make any sense?

 

[Fieari]

Do note, that at higher levels... say, epic levels... the difference between official CR and ECL gets really high, and it often turns out that the ECL is a much better indication of power against players than the CR. I've ditched using CR at epic levels... or rather, I multiply the CR by 3/2 (aka, 1.5) and that seems to be more accurate for what my players can handle.

 

[the Jester]

Welcome aboard!

As your question is already answered, that's all I have to say, but I felt it was worth saying.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Do note, that at higher levels... say, epic levels... the difference between official CR and ECL gets really high, and it often turns out that the ECL is a much better indication of power against players than the CR. I've ditched using CR at epic levels... or rather, I multiply the CR by 3/2 (aka, 1.5) and that seems to be more accurate for what my players can handle.

Wait, are you saying that the players are losing to things with a lower CR than their level at the high end? Wow, they must be a lot weaker than mine, I guess. Not a surprise, really, since by that level, power disparity between PCs varies so greatly that you can't really make a universal gauge to indicate what they would find a challenge.