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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 4256732" data-attributes="member: 5143">Why would you like to avoid it?  What benefit do we gain by having a complex set of rules for crafting?  Or were you referring to the part where the check would never come up in game?No, I believe that limitations actually end up helping.  Left to their own devices players will do all sorts of stupid things.  You can guide them to better choices while making them think it was their choice all along.The roles are one of the ways you do that.  I rather like the idea of Fighter as a Defender.  I don't like the idea that the Fighter's only power is roll a d20, see if you hit, then role damage.  One says "You are going to be useful in combat in a way that helps your allies.  If everyone does their jobs, in whatever way they have available, then you will survive."  The other says "Just shut up and role your dice."Sure...there are.  However, I can see a time when I might need those monsters.  Plus, one of the stated goals of the new monster manual WAS to get rid of a lot of the monsters no one had need of and to change the background of monsters so they were more useful as enemies and more likely to appear in adventures.Part of the idea of 4e IS to get rid of the stuff that wasn't as useful in D&D.  I just don't see a time where I'll need detailed rules for any crafting checks.  If I need a simple rule, it is already there in the DMG: "Roll an ability check based on whatever stat I feel is appropriate for the craft."  However, I don't see a time where any of my players would say "Boy, I wish that blacksmithing check had been expanded into a series of checks so that it took up a larger portion of our playing time."They can.  But I don't want them to.  And my players don't want them to either.  The last time I started a discussion between an NPC and them about what type of enemies they might encounter on the road, one of them interrupted me and said "Don't worry about it...you are paying us?  Right, we'll be leaving now to go slay the people who kidnapped your daughter."When you'd need to climb a tree.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Well, it's one shtick, but its different every time.  One week you're crawling through the Underdark on your hands and knees fighting off Mind Flayers who are trying to mind control you.  The next you are digging through the ruins of an ancient city while being attacked by ghosts who are draining your soul.One time you are pushing Elves off of cliffs, the next time you are standing up to a Cyclops and knocking it down.  It's only the same if you consider combat so boring that it all ends up as "attacking enemies."  The details matter to me.The characters are only one dimensional in that they are all people of action who accomplish great things.Every time the game concentrates on something that only involves 1 or 2 members of the group it is bad for everyone else.  You want everyone to be involved.  That's the idea of skill challenges, to remove the "I wait until the one guy who actually has the skill finishes and then go back to playing the game" factor.It certainly would be possible to concentrate a game on crafting if you could find an entire group of people who were interested in it.  I find this unlikely.  If I need a crafting check, it will be one, maybe 2 rolls in order to keep it short.Nope.  I don't think it was any of those things.Heroic: "Yep, you sure braved all sorts of dangers to put that sword together, the forge was awfully hot, you might have been killed at any moment."Exciting: "Umm, it's putting a sword back together...watching someone bang a hammer against metal for hours has all the excitement of watching construction....or paint dry."Dramatic: "Will the sword stay together?  Maybe it'll fall apart suddenly?  Maybe you'll miss the sword and accidentally hurt your hand...that would be surprising..."Prestigious: "I put a sword back together!"  "Oh?  Don't hundreds of smiths do that every day?"  "But, it was a special sword!"  "Did you do anything different than with every other sword?"  "No..."  "Oh...well, that's exciting.  Did I mention the other week we killed the dragon that has been terrorizing everyone in the world for 1000 years and was considered invincible?"Could it have been made any of those things?  Maybe a LITTLE.  I could see hyping up the smith that put the shards together as having impressive skill.  I doubt that it could be made Exciting or Heroic.  Dramatic maybe if there was a good chance of failing.  But Drama without excitement isn't worthwhile.</blockquote>

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