Craft Requirements for Item Creation Feats

[trav_laney]

This subject came up in another thread, and I thought I would move it to its own little page. The topic on the table is, should ranks in the Craft skill be required for Item Creation feats?

The argument is this: the average person is not skilled enough to make a weapon without proper training (sometimes years of it). Cutting gems and smelting ores to make jewelry is no minor task either, and carving even basic designs into a stick requires more than just whittling experience. Currently, the only requirement for Item Creation feats in the SRD is a high enough caster level...and while that is certainly effective, I think it is short-sighted.

The question is, which Craft skills would you require, and how many ranks of each?

 

[DragnLancr]

I don't think you should be required to have Craft skills to use any Item Creation feat. The Item Creation can be used to enchant an already made item, even one that is already enchanted, so obviously the Item Creation feats involve enchanting it, not making the hard material that you hold in your hand to wield the magic.

Now, that isn't to say that having the skills enough to make it for yourself wouldn't be useful, but it shouldn't be necessary.

 

[Li Shenron]

The core rules basically assume that when you enchant an item, you are working on an existing item, so it has already been craft by someone else.

It's easy to think about it for things like weapons and armors, but when it comes to stuff like wands or rings, the books actually do not require you to "buy" an stick or a non-magical ring and then enchant it with spells. So I believe it's quite open to the DM. I guess 99% of DM's just don't care, as long as the PC pays the GP/XP they don't question whether you bought a gold ring or forge it yourself.

So in a certain way, adding Craft ranks as requisite to Item Creation Feats makes sense but only partially: one wizard could forge his own rings (Craft: Blacksmithing) while another one could buy beautifully crafted rings and enchant them later. Requiring Craft ranks would not be completely fair to the second.

For other items like wands/staves, it could be more complicated because they could be made of wood or iron or many other materials, hence different Craft would suffice. For Wondrous Items it's impossible to generalize, each one would need its own.

Having extra requirements could be fun tho, as long as they are not too steep...

It's hard at the moment to think about some concrete ideas.
Perhaps you could consider something like actually making it optional but granting benefits like:

0 ranks = caster has to buy the basic item from someone else (cost and time is assumed in the DMG value)
1 rank = caster can craft the basic item herself, a small % discount on the GP price is granted
2+ ranks = the higher the rank, the faster the crafting (reduce crafting time)

 

[trav_laney]

The core rules basically assume that when you enchant an item, you are working on an existing item, so it has already been craft by someone else.

I would agree in the case of certain permanent magic items, such as armor and weapons. But scribing scrolls and brewing potions are a different matter...at least, in my campaign anyway. I suppose it is possible to buy existing, inert bottles of fluid and enchant them with spells to your liking, but that's not how I imagined the feat working. Permanent magic items are usually made from existing objects (masterworked weapons and shields, for example) and a character could certainly craft these items himself with the Craft skill and recover the cost of buying the base item...but temporary items have no "base."

Perhaps the Craft skill should only apply to temporary magic items. For example, the Brew Potion feat might require 3 ranks in Craft (alchemy), and the Scribe Scroll feat might require 3 ranks in Craft (calligraphy).

Wands and staffs are a different story, because as you pointed out, they can be made from just about anything. It would seriously kill the fun of making magic items if you had to take specific Craft skills to make specific magic items (Craft: woodcarving, Craft: bonecarving, Craft: stonecutting, Craft: metalworking, etc.) just to be able to make a particular wand.

Perhaps the easiest solution would be to create a new Craft skill. Craft (wandmaking) and Craft (staffmaking), for example. What do you think?

 

[Stormborn]

Trav you might want to check out Magesmithing 101 which, I believe, makes item creation far more mythic and difficult. Seperating true magic smiths from the average wizard. It also makes magic items rarer and far more difficult to make. It can even be used in a world with no magic at all, beyond magic items. Contrary to what the reviewers and the publisher seemed to think it was ment to completly alter the item creation rules. Its not meant for the average game but it might fit the feel you are looking for.

 

[ChimericDream]

What about a variation on the current version that incorporates the craft skill? Something like changing this:

Forge Ring [Item Creation]
Prerequisite: Caster level 12th.

To this:

Forge Ring [Item Creation]
Prerequisite: Caster level 12th; or Craft (jewelry or gemcutting) 9 ranks and Caster level 9th.

That way, you give both people the option. Perhaps those who are used to crafting certain items are more familiar with the tools and subtleties of the craft, and are therefore able to enchant said items more easily.

The numbers above are a quick eyeball, and could easily be tweaked, but you get the general idea.

 

[ChimericDream]

Just as a note, I liked this idea enough to see what other item creation feats it could apply to. Here's what I figure works from the SRD. Note I don't have a few on there like Rod, Staff or Wand. There really isn't much in the way of actually crafting anything for these as much as there is for the three I tweaked.

Craft Magic Arms And Armor [Item Creation]

Prerequisites: Caster level 5th; or craft (weaponsmithing) 4 ranks and craft (armorsmithing) 4 ranks and Caster level 1st.

Craft Wondrous Item [Item Creation]

Prerequisites: Caster level 3rd; or craft (any) 4 ranks and Caster level 1st.

Forge Ring [Item Creation]

Prerequisites: Caster level 12th; or craft (jewelry or gemcutting) 9 ranks and Caster level 9th.

 

[airwalkrr]

As others have said, magic item creation typically involves enhancing items that already exist. The only thing you are "crafting" is the magical enhancement. Hence, a craft skill is not really a reasonable prerequisite unless (for flavor or similar reason) in your campaign world, magic item crafters also must be superb craftsmen of the item itself and not just the magic. I could see a potential justification for it, but can't see myself ever using it as a requirement.

 

[Li Shenron]

What about a variation on the current version that incorporates the craft skill? Something like changing this:

No, the minimum level required is generally quite important as a balancing factor, I wouldn't like to discount it like that. It's not too bad, but at least I wouldn't make it a general thing with all ICF.

 

[Li Shenron]

I would agree in the case of certain permanent magic items, such as armor and weapons. But scribing scrolls and brewing potions are a different matter...at least, in my campaign anyway. I suppose it is possible to buy existing, inert bottles of fluid and enchant them with spells to your liking, but that's not how I imagined the feat working. Permanent magic items are usually made from existing objects (masterworked weapons and shields, for example) and a character could certainly craft these items himself with the Craft skill and recover the cost of buying the base item...but temporary items have no "base."

Yes, in fact my first sentence didn't fully match the rest of my explanation

With weapons & armors it is explicit that they take an existing masterwork item.

Potions IMHO shouldn't need anything else... everything needed can be assumed by the Brew Potion feat. Ingredients are part of the cost, even if you could imagine some ingredient to be "crafted" from more basic ones. Containers are ignored (and cost included).

Scrolls are the same. Let's forget about the paper and the ink... the ability to scribe spells in scroll has to do with storing the magic inside. In any case what kind of symbols you need to write is open, an Orc Cleric may just scribe simple lines and spots of blood

Wands, rods and staves MAY need to be crafted, but how this is done is so open that it makes no sense to put craft requirements, because for example a druid could just say that she crafts them from raw branches of tree, and that is perfectly legit.

Wondrous items (and let's put Rings together) vary a lot, but most of the times permanent items look like an equivalent mundane object like clothing or jewelry. These need to be crafted by someone, but IMO it's absolutely safe to assume that the wizard has bought/found the appropriate base item, and the cost is ignored/assumed in the cost to make it magic.

Perhaps the Craft skill should only apply to temporary magic items. For example, the Brew Potion feat might require 3 ranks in Craft (alchemy), and the Scribe Scroll feat might require 3 ranks in Craft (calligraphy).

I think temporary items are actually less likely to require craft, since they usually are substances rather than items, but it's just my opinion.

Wands and staffs are a different story, because as you pointed out, they can be made from just about anything. It would seriously kill the fun of making magic items if you had to take specific Craft skills to make specific magic items (Craft: woodcarving, Craft: bonecarving, Craft: stonecutting, Craft: metalworking, etc.) just to be able to make a particular wand.

That's what I tried to say, but I mean it generally: making it a REQUIREMENT would kill the fun for most player.

So how can it IMPROVE the fun of the few without make it worse? -> make it OPTIONAL and let it bring a BENEFIT instead of being just a cost!

Perhaps the easiest solution would be to create a new Craft skill. Craft (wandmaking) and Craft (staffmaking), for example. What do you think?

Well this is another matter, you either can do this or not, as you wish. For gaming style reasons, I'd rather like having a character that has Craft(Glassblowing) and could apply it to either wands, staves and certain wondrous items, as long as she makes them all of glass.