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<blockquote data-quote="balterkn" data-source="post: 3427520" data-attributes="member: 46546">IME... your point about raising the CR is very valid.&nbsp; Multiple groups with more than 4 PCs that I've worked with find they can only barely hit the creature (17+ for the main fighter), while 2 or even 3 of the matched (CR equals average party level) tends to be most balanced.In this case, individual powers, by either CR or ECL, have the plus or minus 4 levels in mind for being able to potentially overcome encounters.&nbsp; If designing an encounter for 4 characters at ECL 6, a CR 9 should be winnable but very difficult.&nbsp; However, even with 8 characters ECL 6, a CR 11 creature is likely to be able to do a TPK without much problem (a single wizard 11 will have spells that can slaughter 6th level characters and have enought wealth to have equipment to give some staying power ot other advantages completely out of range of the party's wealth).So, where does this leave us?&nbsp; You analogy of using more is good, but maybe the BBEG needs more minions to keep the 8 characters at bay, while remaining at a reasonable CR for the ECL average of the party.&nbsp; Thus, don't just double everyone, but add more mooks, so that the swarm of PCs aren't able to use their number to their advantage.&nbsp; Alternately, you can also use terrain to limit the PCs ability to bring all their characters to bear at once (limiting an enemy's ability to maneuver is a central military tactic - the bad guys should use this tactic, especially against large groups)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="balterkn, post: 3427520, member: 46546"] IME... your point about raising the CR is very valid. Multiple groups with more than 4 PCs that I've worked with find they can only barely hit the creature (17+ for the main fighter), while 2 or even 3 of the matched (CR equals average party level) tends to be most balanced. In this case, individual powers, by either CR or ECL, have the plus or minus 4 levels in mind for being able to potentially overcome encounters. If designing an encounter for 4 characters at ECL 6, a CR 9 should be winnable but very difficult. However, even with 8 characters ECL 6, a CR 11 creature is likely to be able to do a TPK without much problem (a single wizard 11 will have spells that can slaughter 6th level characters and have enought wealth to have equipment to give some staying power ot other advantages completely out of range of the party's wealth). So, where does this leave us? You analogy of using more is good, but maybe the BBEG needs more minions to keep the 8 characters at bay, while remaining at a reasonable CR for the ECL average of the party. Thus, don't just double everyone, but add more mooks, so that the swarm of PCs aren't able to use their number to their advantage. Alternately, you can also use terrain to limit the PCs ability to bring all their characters to bear at once (limiting an enemy's ability to maneuver is a central military tactic - the bad guys should use this tactic, especially against large groups) [/QUOTE]

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