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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Crafting... can anyone make anything in 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4313284" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Arravis: I don't really know how you can put up with this sort of crap. What a bunch of useless replies. </p><p></p><p>The rest of you...</p><p></p><p>A) "Characters can do what the DM allows them to do": This is no sort of answer at all. Why don't we just scrap the entire combat system and simply arbitrate combat by having characters do what what the DM allows them to? Why do we need rules at all? </p><p></p><p>Arravis is saying that crafting is central to his campaign - as one would expect in any game where crafted items aren't freely purchaseable and resources are limited. We don't scrap the combat system because it is central to the campaign. Likewise, we don't scrap the combat system for DM fiat because we want to give players some expectations about how propositions will be resolved. Likewise, we don't scrap the combat system because we want to shift some of the burden of arbitrating the system to the designer thereby decreasing the burden that is on the referee.</p><p></p><p>B) "Just make it up yourself": This is no sort of answer at all. Why do we purchase a game system? So we don't have to make it up ourselves! Of course we could make up any sort of subsystem, but inventing new game systems is hard. The 3E crafting system was, for all its complexity, already inadequate if crafting was to be in any fashion central to your campaign. That was one of my biggest gripes with the 3E system. Making up a crafting system isn't easy, especially without even any basic system or examples to start with.</p><p></p><p>C) "Crafting is just badwrongfun anyway": These sorts of replies are not only non-answers, but they ought to get you tossed off the thread by a moderator.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, back to your question Arravis.</p><p></p><p>Fourth edition doesn't really provide any answers to your question nor does it provide much help for you. The designers of 4E believed it was very important to focus the game on what they percieved to be D&D's core gameplay. Crafting was not percieved to be part of D&D's core gameplay, and so its not really dealt with at all. I consider this to be very shortsighted, and maybe in the long run so will the designers of 4E. While you are awaiting 'The Complete Crafter's Handbook', I'd check out Andor's reply because I think its a good one.</p><p></p><p>a) I think I would create a profession/secondary skill template wherein each party member could purchase for free a certain number of crafting skills. Each crafting skill feat would make you trained in that craft.</p><p></p><p>b) One thing that 3rd edition doesn't handle well is heirarchies of closely related but separate skills, for example: carpenter, joiner, shipwright, plowwright, wood carver, bowyer, all have skill sets that interlap to some extent but not completely. One thing that 4E's skills as feats systems opens up is a nice skill hierarchy like </p><p></p><p>carpenter -> shipwright</p><p>carpenter -> joiner</p><p>wood carver -> bowyer</p><p>whitesmith -> silversmith/goldsmith</p><p>silversmith/goldsmith + stone polisher -> jeweler</p><p>blacksmith -> weaponsmith</p><p>blacksmith + animal handler -> farrier</p><p>carpenter + blacksmith -> plowright</p><p></p><p>And so forth. In that fashion, all skilled shipwrights are already skilled carpenters, all skilled weaponsmiths can do basic smith work, and so forth.</p><p></p><p>c) Another thing it opens up is the possibility of defining related skills. For example, if I'm a trained blacksmith (+5 bonus, can do 'trained' things like high skill work), then I could also be considered a 'trained' whitesmith, brownsmith, weaponsmith only without the +5 bonus because I wouldn't be working in my core craft. If I can work with iron, I can probably work with bronze, albiet not with the same degree of proficiency as if I had practiced extensively with bronze.</p><p> </p><p>d) In terms of how long something takes or how much it costs, this can get really complicated. But a simple approach would be to simply start listing out the things you can make with a given skill as 'rituals', listing the time, cost of materials, minimum skill check, and outcome of success and failure. So you might have 'Craft Furniture', 'Forge Weapon', 'Embroider Cloth', 'Engrave Steel' and so forth. That's not as satisfying in some ways as a unified system, but it is simple - albiet tedious.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4313284, member: 4937"] Arravis: I don't really know how you can put up with this sort of crap. What a bunch of useless replies. The rest of you... A) "Characters can do what the DM allows them to do": This is no sort of answer at all. Why don't we just scrap the entire combat system and simply arbitrate combat by having characters do what what the DM allows them to? Why do we need rules at all? Arravis is saying that crafting is central to his campaign - as one would expect in any game where crafted items aren't freely purchaseable and resources are limited. We don't scrap the combat system because it is central to the campaign. Likewise, we don't scrap the combat system for DM fiat because we want to give players some expectations about how propositions will be resolved. Likewise, we don't scrap the combat system because we want to shift some of the burden of arbitrating the system to the designer thereby decreasing the burden that is on the referee. B) "Just make it up yourself": This is no sort of answer at all. Why do we purchase a game system? So we don't have to make it up ourselves! Of course we could make up any sort of subsystem, but inventing new game systems is hard. The 3E crafting system was, for all its complexity, already inadequate if crafting was to be in any fashion central to your campaign. That was one of my biggest gripes with the 3E system. Making up a crafting system isn't easy, especially without even any basic system or examples to start with. C) "Crafting is just badwrongfun anyway": These sorts of replies are not only non-answers, but they ought to get you tossed off the thread by a moderator. Anyway, back to your question Arravis. Fourth edition doesn't really provide any answers to your question nor does it provide much help for you. The designers of 4E believed it was very important to focus the game on what they percieved to be D&D's core gameplay. Crafting was not percieved to be part of D&D's core gameplay, and so its not really dealt with at all. I consider this to be very shortsighted, and maybe in the long run so will the designers of 4E. While you are awaiting 'The Complete Crafter's Handbook', I'd check out Andor's reply because I think its a good one. a) I think I would create a profession/secondary skill template wherein each party member could purchase for free a certain number of crafting skills. Each crafting skill feat would make you trained in that craft. b) One thing that 3rd edition doesn't handle well is heirarchies of closely related but separate skills, for example: carpenter, joiner, shipwright, plowwright, wood carver, bowyer, all have skill sets that interlap to some extent but not completely. One thing that 4E's skills as feats systems opens up is a nice skill hierarchy like carpenter -> shipwright carpenter -> joiner wood carver -> bowyer whitesmith -> silversmith/goldsmith silversmith/goldsmith + stone polisher -> jeweler blacksmith -> weaponsmith blacksmith + animal handler -> farrier carpenter + blacksmith -> plowright And so forth. In that fashion, all skilled shipwrights are already skilled carpenters, all skilled weaponsmiths can do basic smith work, and so forth. c) Another thing it opens up is the possibility of defining related skills. For example, if I'm a trained blacksmith (+5 bonus, can do 'trained' things like high skill work), then I could also be considered a 'trained' whitesmith, brownsmith, weaponsmith only without the +5 bonus because I wouldn't be working in my core craft. If I can work with iron, I can probably work with bronze, albiet not with the same degree of proficiency as if I had practiced extensively with bronze. d) In terms of how long something takes or how much it costs, this can get really complicated. But a simple approach would be to simply start listing out the things you can make with a given skill as 'rituals', listing the time, cost of materials, minimum skill check, and outcome of success and failure. So you might have 'Craft Furniture', 'Forge Weapon', 'Embroider Cloth', 'Engrave Steel' and so forth. That's not as satisfying in some ways as a unified system, but it is simple - albiet tedious. [/QUOTE]
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