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Crafting Items - Expert Craftsman vs Adventurers
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<blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 7600205" data-attributes="member: 1210"><p>This is, on its face, nonsense. DM-as-impartial-arbiter is something that goes back to the very beginning of the game, yet early DMs built worlds, set challenges, etc. I'd say that you're doing two things in this passage here- arguing that <em>your playstyle</em> is <em>the valid</em> playstyle, and trying to shoe horn a square peg (your vision of what 'impartial' means) into a round hole (actual game play under an impartial DM, at least as I understand the term and strive to run my game).</p><p></p><p>So let me hit these things one by one.</p><p></p><p>'Telling a story' has been rather fetishized by many in the RPG community. But an impartial DM's game might well tell a story in the end, even if that DM runs a hardcore sandbox that lets the pcs guide the course of the campaign. It's just not as much of a story written in advance as in a more story-focused game. Instead, the story is <em>emergent.</em> It emerges from play. The DM didn't decide to tell a story about who controls knowledge; the actions of the pcs dictated that that was the topic, as well as how it all came out. </p><p></p><p>'Setting up challenges' is something that every DM does, with the corner-case exceptions of DMs who only run pre-written adventures and DMs who run games without challenges or whose challenges arise strictly from the interaction of pcs. Asserting that an impartial DM doesn't set up challenges is pretty absurd. I consider myself an impartial DM and I run a hardcore sandbox. That doesn't mean that there aren't challenges aplenty to be had. I would go so far as to say that the act of setting up challenges and whether the DM is impartial have nothing to do with each other; they're entirely separate. </p><p></p><p>I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'setting goals'. (Granted, I've skipped a large chunk of the middle of this thread, so maybe this has already been hashed out.) If you mean setting goals for the player characters, I certainly hope not! That's not the DM's role (in my playstyle)- that's entirely within the purview of the players. They decide what course to follow, what agenda to pursue, what adventures to go on. The impartial DM <em>provides options</em> rather than <em>dictating goals.</em></p><p></p><p>As for world building, your assertion that impartial DMs don't is totally wrong. Greyhawk came from Gygax, the original impartial-and-adversarial DM, I run a homebrewed setting that I created whole cloth, and there are many more examples available if you look around a bit. </p><p></p><p>And then we come to this- </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. Just no. An impartial DM <em>might not be to your taste,</em> but your taste doesn't dictate what makes a good DM. And this broad brush you're painting with? It seems that you're missing a lot of the details and just slopping the same shade of brown over an entire intricately detailed mural. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Here you seem to be operating with a very weird idea of what impartial means. </p><p></p><p>"Partial to certain fundamentals in their world"? It sounds like you are redefining impartial to be impossible. An impartial DM is impartial <em>in play.</em> She doesn't fudge the dice, she doesn't adjust things to suit the party. That has nothing to do whatsoever with the world creation aspect of DMing. </p><p></p><p>Perhaps that is the issue- you're conflating <em>creative</em> with <em>partial.</em> They needn't be the same. That's like saying that the umpire of a baseball game can't be impartial because he paints portraits of baseball players at home. They have literally nothing to do with each other. The only commonality is that the same eye looks at the paintings and the game in progress.</p><p></p><p>That said, I do agree (partially) with one thing you said up there- that a DM who sets out to tell a specific story is <em>less likely</em> to be impartial. They are more likely to nudge things in the direction of the story. But that's why I would assert that it's easier to be an impartial DM if you're running a sandbox. By giving the choice of direction to the pcs, you put yourself in the position of adjudicating/refereeing. And that's what an impartial DM does- adjudicate, based on the rules of the game and the setting, the logical consequences of the actions of the pcs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Can't parse this bit- I'm wondering if you maybe got autocorrected or something here?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="the Jester, post: 7600205, member: 1210"] This is, on its face, nonsense. DM-as-impartial-arbiter is something that goes back to the very beginning of the game, yet early DMs built worlds, set challenges, etc. I'd say that you're doing two things in this passage here- arguing that [i]your playstyle[/i] is [i]the valid[/i] playstyle, and trying to shoe horn a square peg (your vision of what 'impartial' means) into a round hole (actual game play under an impartial DM, at least as I understand the term and strive to run my game). So let me hit these things one by one. 'Telling a story' has been rather fetishized by many in the RPG community. But an impartial DM's game might well tell a story in the end, even if that DM runs a hardcore sandbox that lets the pcs guide the course of the campaign. It's just not as much of a story written in advance as in a more story-focused game. Instead, the story is [i]emergent.[/i] It emerges from play. The DM didn't decide to tell a story about who controls knowledge; the actions of the pcs dictated that that was the topic, as well as how it all came out. 'Setting up challenges' is something that every DM does, with the corner-case exceptions of DMs who only run pre-written adventures and DMs who run games without challenges or whose challenges arise strictly from the interaction of pcs. Asserting that an impartial DM doesn't set up challenges is pretty absurd. I consider myself an impartial DM and I run a hardcore sandbox. That doesn't mean that there aren't challenges aplenty to be had. I would go so far as to say that the act of setting up challenges and whether the DM is impartial have nothing to do with each other; they're entirely separate. I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'setting goals'. (Granted, I've skipped a large chunk of the middle of this thread, so maybe this has already been hashed out.) If you mean setting goals for the player characters, I certainly hope not! That's not the DM's role (in my playstyle)- that's entirely within the purview of the players. They decide what course to follow, what agenda to pursue, what adventures to go on. The impartial DM [i]provides options[/i] rather than [i]dictating goals.[/i] As for world building, your assertion that impartial DMs don't is totally wrong. Greyhawk came from Gygax, the original impartial-and-adversarial DM, I run a homebrewed setting that I created whole cloth, and there are many more examples available if you look around a bit. And then we come to this- No. Just no. An impartial DM [i]might not be to your taste,[/i] but your taste doesn't dictate what makes a good DM. And this broad brush you're painting with? It seems that you're missing a lot of the details and just slopping the same shade of brown over an entire intricately detailed mural. Here you seem to be operating with a very weird idea of what impartial means. "Partial to certain fundamentals in their world"? It sounds like you are redefining impartial to be impossible. An impartial DM is impartial [i]in play.[/i] She doesn't fudge the dice, she doesn't adjust things to suit the party. That has nothing to do whatsoever with the world creation aspect of DMing. Perhaps that is the issue- you're conflating [i]creative[/i] with [i]partial.[/i] They needn't be the same. That's like saying that the umpire of a baseball game can't be impartial because he paints portraits of baseball players at home. They have literally nothing to do with each other. The only commonality is that the same eye looks at the paintings and the game in progress. That said, I do agree (partially) with one thing you said up there- that a DM who sets out to tell a specific story is [i]less likely[/i] to be impartial. They are more likely to nudge things in the direction of the story. But that's why I would assert that it's easier to be an impartial DM if you're running a sandbox. By giving the choice of direction to the pcs, you put yourself in the position of adjudicating/refereeing. And that's what an impartial DM does- adjudicate, based on the rules of the game and the setting, the logical consequences of the actions of the pcs. Can't parse this bit- I'm wondering if you maybe got autocorrected or something here? [/QUOTE]
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