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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 3971057" data-attributes="member: 3146">When discussing craft times and skill checks, don't forget to include apprentices and journeymen using aid other. Even an armorsmith crafting ordinary fullplate (masterwork, of course, since there's very little reason to ever make non-masterwork fullplate given the base cost) is good enough that he might expect to have at least a couple apprentices. Assuming first level apprentices using masterwork tools, and the aid other action, that will almost always be a pair of +2 bonuses.If you use the Complete Adventurer improved Aid Other rules and make the apprentices a pair of journeymen with 5 ranks each (a +1 int bonus, skill focus, and masterwork tools for a total of +11), they will usually manage the +3 aid other which may be enough to boost the DC to 30 and still succeed handily (without the +10 magic tools).Dwarves, of course, have a significant advantage in this field. If you use a dwarven craftsman:Taking ten14 Int +2Dwarf working with metal +2Skill Focus +3Masterwork Tools +2A pair of dwarven journeyman assistants using Aid Other: +6You only need 5 ranks to hit DC 30 every time.Given +10 tools instead of +2 masterwork tools, you can hit DC 40 with 7 ranks--a mere 4th level dwarf expert. That will speed things up considerably.A human could accomplish that at 6th level.Now, historically, at least by the mid to late 16th century, fullplate armor was actually manufactured in relatively large workshops in Greenwich, Milan, etc, so it might not be unreasonable to have more assistants. (I imagine guild regulations specified the number of apprentices a master could take on; it would be interesting to find out how many real life guild regulations permitted). If we allow the master amorer four apprentices in addition to the two journeymen, that brings his total check to a 50 by level 6 for the dwarf and level 8 for the human. (With the +10 tools; still DC 42 is still impressive even without those tools)In case you are wondering about the apprentices always making their aid other checks--they actually can't fail.1st level commoner: 12 Int +1, Masterwork tools +2, max ranks +4, Skill Focus +3= +10 to the roll.Even if the master armorer didn't deliberately select promising youths for his apprentices (as represented by the 12 int--it's only slightly above average) and ended up with 10 int apprentices, they are still at +9 which won't fail on a 1.If the apprentices are dwarves, the bright ones (Int 12+) don't even need skill focus to autosucceed on the aid other.Even somewhat slow apprentices (int 8) will only be unhelpful on a roll of a 1.Of course that's all general crafting rules rather than crafting special materials rules but it's interesting none-the-less.Then again, I'm not certain that there's really a dramatic problem if it takes a workshop full of smiths six months to craft a single adamantine longsword or a year to craft a suit of adamantine fullplate. If it takes a single dwarf smith ten years to craft a single suit of dwarven fullplate, it still makes a good story.</blockquote>

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