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Message: <blockquote data-quote="daviddalbec" data-source="post: 7094783" data-attributes="member: 6842418">I agree, as I posted this is what Crawford seemed to really mean by passive perception being a "baseline". If a creature isn't Hidden - meaning it failed to roll higher than surround enemies passive perception - then you wouldn't need to search for it in the first place. Sure, you *almost* have the Reliable Talent feature going in this case, but we already know that that 10 isn't good enough.I think when I laid out 4 cases of hiding, I was pretty on point.1. A character's passive perception might find a creature, in which case you don't use your *action* to search for it, because you know it is there. 2. You do not find it with passive, and also never know it is there, which would mean you as a player would not know to use your action to search. 3. You know a creature is there, perhaps you saw it hide behind a stone, in a cabinet or cast invisibility, or you have insider info that it is around, but you (with passive) can't detect it. You'd likely use your *action* to search for it. In this case you can get up to 10 points higher (or 5 higher if you have Observant Feat) on perception than your passive, and maybe reveal the hidden thing. 4. Some situation, such as an specific item being hid in a desk as in the PHB example, you need to be specific about your actions and *actively* interact such that a passive skill doesn't apply. So something not "the average result of a task done repeatedly" and of course not something secret. It'd have to be something accute and novel. I think only in these case, by the rules, do you *have* to use an active check at all, and furthermore a passive cannot be used. Something like "Your passive doesnt find the gnome in this room - I roll active trying to look closer (nat 20) - you still don't find him (he isnt *detectable * from there) - I check inside the chest under the desk (roll 10) - you press your ear up to it and hear breathing" in this case the rogue feature and such do something and the passive does nothing.</blockquote>

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