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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 7117051" data-attributes="member: 97077"><p>Each table needs to figure that out on its own. For me, a clear statement of goal (what you hope to accomplish) and approach (what you do to accomplish it) is sufficient.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Some reasonably specific statement of your goal and approach is required. It's Step 2 of the basic conversation of the game: "The players describe what they want to do."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If that someone is attempting to be stealthy and you are engaged in some task that distracts from keeping watch for danger, he, she, or it will get the jump on you without reference to the mechanics. It is generally safe to assume "keeping watch for danger" is the "default mode" of a character unless the player has established that the character is undertaking a task that distracts from that, however. Still, I think it's advisable not to assume what the characters are doing if we can avoid it, so getting the players on record as to the general tasks they are undertaking while traveling the adventure location is a good idea in my view.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The rules being referenced are used when the adventurers travel through a dungeon, wilderness, or other adventure location. Travel pace ranges from minutes to hours to days. It covers any time the characters are engaged in movement through the world and their interaction with objects and situations that require their attention.</p><p></p><p>I agree that the character's eyes and ears continue to work while engaged in other activities. But if they are doing something that distracts from keeping watch for danger or, say, searching for clues or secret doors, then their eyes and ears don't pick up danger or clues or secret doors. They need to be reasonably specific as to the what they want to do and they can't do it all. Only a ranger in favored terrain has a chance to both notice danger and engage in some other task at the same time.</p><p></p><p>When you say "purposefully use them (make a roll)," I think you are saying that players get to decide to make a roll. They don't (and in my view shouldn't want to). They may only describe what they want to do.</p><p></p><p>The example you provide above regarding the apple and the table is silly. That is the DM failing to describe the environment - where the adventurers are, what's around them, and the basic scope of options that present themselves. This is Step 1 of the basic conversation of the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, inherent in your statement appears to be an assumption that players get to decide to roll. Again, they don't. So there's that problem sorted. As to players describing what they want to do, if you're asking the players what general tasks they undertake while traveling the adventure location, that's one interaction at the front end and stays that way until they engage in a task that distracts from that. This does not seem burdensome to me.</p><p></p><p>With regard to the DC to find the trap, I don't see any issue with the character with the PP 15 finding all of the DC 12 pit traps. The player has likely (1) made an investment in Wisdom and/or Perception, (2) was reasonably specific as to goal and approach, (3) chose the task of keeping watch for danger at the cost of engaging in any other task (unless a ranger in favored terrain), and (4) is probably in the front of the marching order - and thus potentially at greater risk - because that's where you'd need to be to notice pit traps the party is approaching. So yeah, that seems like a fair trade to catch all those DC 12 pit traps to me!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You say you agree that players don't roll unless the DM says so, but your previous statements seem to belie an assumption to the contrary. Further, no actions directly imply rolls. There is an adjudication process in D&D 5e. Once a player has described what he or she wants to do, the DM must decide if the character is successful, fails, or has an uncertain chance of success or failure. In the latter case, the DM engages the mechanics. Some players may like to roll because "dice!", but I don't think it's unreasonable to state that this is not a great strategy for success. The player is better served by always shooting for automatic success with no roll. The fickle, swingy d20 is nobody's friend. When I am a player, I never ask to roll. I state reasonably specific approaches to goals and wait for the DM to tell me what happens. What I've noticed across multiple gaming groups is that my characters are about 50% more successful than every player who asks to roll. Again, the dice aren't their friends.</p><p></p><p>"I search the bottom of the drawer..." isn't reasonably specific enough for me. I need to have a statement as to how thorough the character is being since time matters. If the character makes a cursory search because time is of the essence, then I might ask for a check - their rush makes it uncertain to notice the hidden compartment. If the character is exhaustive, then it's just automatic success. But that likely results in a wandering monster check or some other possible setback. If there is a check and the player fails the check, the character might still find the compartment, but at a cost. Or they might not find it at all. Further searches might turn it up, but again, each of those searches is a trade off and a cost.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you have costs and trade offs in your game, then exhaustively searching everything all the time is going to come back to haunt the players. First, wandering monsters can come calling the longer you take in the dungeon room. And if you're exhaustively searching the room, you're not also keeping watch for danger (unless a ranger in favored terrain). So you are automatically surprised if the wandering monsters are choosing to be stealthy. (Not all of them will choose to sneak up on the PCs, so you're not <em>always </em>at risk of automatic surprise. But still, that's a pretty big risk.) </p><p></p><p>Given that, what you'll tend to see in my experience are some players choosing to put their characters on watch while other characters search, and being exhaustive only when the environment has given them cause to believe the risk is worth the reward. And that sounds about the right outcome to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, the DM does <em>not</em>" always use dice to determine what the characters actually do." The DM uses dice when the outcome of what the players described they want to do is uncertain and carries a meaningful consequence of failure. The DM then narrates the result of the adventurers' actions, but does not say what the characters DO. The players describe what the characters do (step 2). The DM narrates the result (step 3). That is an important distinction and something I see a lot of DMs muddle, even in very popular actual play podcasts. Many DMs are constantly stepping all over the player's role in this regard.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="iserith, post: 7117051, member: 97077"] Each table needs to figure that out on its own. For me, a clear statement of goal (what you hope to accomplish) and approach (what you do to accomplish it) is sufficient. Some reasonably specific statement of your goal and approach is required. It's Step 2 of the basic conversation of the game: "The players describe what they want to do." If that someone is attempting to be stealthy and you are engaged in some task that distracts from keeping watch for danger, he, she, or it will get the jump on you without reference to the mechanics. It is generally safe to assume "keeping watch for danger" is the "default mode" of a character unless the player has established that the character is undertaking a task that distracts from that, however. Still, I think it's advisable not to assume what the characters are doing if we can avoid it, so getting the players on record as to the general tasks they are undertaking while traveling the adventure location is a good idea in my view. The rules being referenced are used when the adventurers travel through a dungeon, wilderness, or other adventure location. Travel pace ranges from minutes to hours to days. It covers any time the characters are engaged in movement through the world and their interaction with objects and situations that require their attention. I agree that the character's eyes and ears continue to work while engaged in other activities. But if they are doing something that distracts from keeping watch for danger or, say, searching for clues or secret doors, then their eyes and ears don't pick up danger or clues or secret doors. They need to be reasonably specific as to the what they want to do and they can't do it all. Only a ranger in favored terrain has a chance to both notice danger and engage in some other task at the same time. When you say "purposefully use them (make a roll)," I think you are saying that players get to decide to make a roll. They don't (and in my view shouldn't want to). They may only describe what they want to do. The example you provide above regarding the apple and the table is silly. That is the DM failing to describe the environment - where the adventurers are, what's around them, and the basic scope of options that present themselves. This is Step 1 of the basic conversation of the game. Again, inherent in your statement appears to be an assumption that players get to decide to roll. Again, they don't. So there's that problem sorted. As to players describing what they want to do, if you're asking the players what general tasks they undertake while traveling the adventure location, that's one interaction at the front end and stays that way until they engage in a task that distracts from that. This does not seem burdensome to me. With regard to the DC to find the trap, I don't see any issue with the character with the PP 15 finding all of the DC 12 pit traps. The player has likely (1) made an investment in Wisdom and/or Perception, (2) was reasonably specific as to goal and approach, (3) chose the task of keeping watch for danger at the cost of engaging in any other task (unless a ranger in favored terrain), and (4) is probably in the front of the marching order - and thus potentially at greater risk - because that's where you'd need to be to notice pit traps the party is approaching. So yeah, that seems like a fair trade to catch all those DC 12 pit traps to me! You say you agree that players don't roll unless the DM says so, but your previous statements seem to belie an assumption to the contrary. Further, no actions directly imply rolls. There is an adjudication process in D&D 5e. Once a player has described what he or she wants to do, the DM must decide if the character is successful, fails, or has an uncertain chance of success or failure. In the latter case, the DM engages the mechanics. Some players may like to roll because "dice!", but I don't think it's unreasonable to state that this is not a great strategy for success. The player is better served by always shooting for automatic success with no roll. The fickle, swingy d20 is nobody's friend. When I am a player, I never ask to roll. I state reasonably specific approaches to goals and wait for the DM to tell me what happens. What I've noticed across multiple gaming groups is that my characters are about 50% more successful than every player who asks to roll. Again, the dice aren't their friends. "I search the bottom of the drawer..." isn't reasonably specific enough for me. I need to have a statement as to how thorough the character is being since time matters. If the character makes a cursory search because time is of the essence, then I might ask for a check - their rush makes it uncertain to notice the hidden compartment. If the character is exhaustive, then it's just automatic success. But that likely results in a wandering monster check or some other possible setback. If there is a check and the player fails the check, the character might still find the compartment, but at a cost. Or they might not find it at all. Further searches might turn it up, but again, each of those searches is a trade off and a cost. If you have costs and trade offs in your game, then exhaustively searching everything all the time is going to come back to haunt the players. First, wandering monsters can come calling the longer you take in the dungeon room. And if you're exhaustively searching the room, you're not also keeping watch for danger (unless a ranger in favored terrain). So you are automatically surprised if the wandering monsters are choosing to be stealthy. (Not all of them will choose to sneak up on the PCs, so you're not [I]always [/I]at risk of automatic surprise. But still, that's a pretty big risk.) Given that, what you'll tend to see in my experience are some players choosing to put their characters on watch while other characters search, and being exhaustive only when the environment has given them cause to believe the risk is worth the reward. And that sounds about the right outcome to me. No, the DM does [I]not[/I]" always use dice to determine what the characters actually do." The DM uses dice when the outcome of what the players described they want to do is uncertain and carries a meaningful consequence of failure. The DM then narrates the result of the adventurers' actions, but does not say what the characters DO. The players describe what the characters do (step 2). The DM narrates the result (step 3). That is an important distinction and something I see a lot of DMs muddle, even in very popular actual play podcasts. Many DMs are constantly stepping all over the player's role in this regard. [/QUOTE]
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