Crazy Idea - DM picks a level, PCs stay there

Ahnirades

First Post
A variant I'm considering: the DM sets the campaign level; 2nd, 8th, 16th, whatever. The characters remain at that level throughout - xp isn't awarded, treasure is light and magic items (other than those purchased during character building) virtually nonexistent.

The aim is to emulate characters from certain types of fantasy fiction whom rarely exceed their starting skill levels. Rather than amassing inherent personal power, the emphasis will be on developing oneself within the context of the world; via alliances, betrayals, military actions, trade and whatever else is appropriate to the tier currently occupied.

Under this system the hiearchy of power is abundantly clear. Some enemies are trivially easy, others require solutions beyond frontal assault (hence the need for alliances and such). If your character is tenth level and set on vanquishing Torog then some thought is required. You won't eventually get there via xp.
 

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If Torog is an immediate threat to your people, I could see the need to form alliances to fight him successfully; maybe even bring in some big guns to help (higher level allies). But then, there would be little time to worry about XP anyway, since the characters would be facing him within the week. But what about if the rumors start that Torog could be attacking by this time next year and the party is gathered to go find the only artifact on this plane capable of stopping him? Wouldn't it be more prudent to show their success and reward it for the effort of doing so? I just don't see removing the rewards system from the game, I guess, since that IS what XP and magic items are.

I'm not sure which characters you see as not growing during their adventures; if you could elaborate please? Off-hand, any character that stays exactly the same throughout an entire book, let alone a series, would feel one-dimensional to me; so I'd like to see if we can maybe help get our points of view on the same track :).
 

The main issues I see:
1. No learning curve: while it's fine to start at high (or even moderate) level with an experienced group, a newbie group is going to have issues. Even starting at level 2 is adding an entire new option and suite of rules to the game (ie - utility powers, magic items etc)

2. Stagnation: while it's true that story can keep much of the game alive, I feel that combat may start to feel repetitive. I'd suggest at least allowing retraining periodically.

3. Lack of character growth: it's a pretty rare long-term story where the characters don't grow in any way. And while it may be that such growth is purely non-mechanical, it's not going to be the case for every character. Halting character growth and treasure acquisition bars many character archetypes from their goals.
 

What I suggest is a different way of leveling. If alliances and intrigue is what you are going for, perhaps create a system to emulate this.

Players can gain points in certain alliances and so forth. Now it may just a reflection of their roleplaying....it may not be a system where they pick classes or whatnot....but it gives them the thrill of watching their character advance even if its in a different way.
 

Yeah - you need to make a subsystem that reflects "alliances, betrayals, military actions, trade and whatever else" on the character sheet and how those values change based on the actions of the PCs. They don't need to be codified with numbers (e.g. "King of Aquilonia") but they should be structured (you can't write that on your sheet unless you are crowned king). Structure provides information which allows players to make informed decisions.

If those things interact with action resolution, then you will have a nice cycle of play. Let's say you start out as a knight; you use your "knight" resources in encounters. Resolving those encounters changes your status (in terms of "alliances, betrayals, military actions, trade and whatever else"); this change in status alters the encounters you face, making them more interesting (opening up a trade route brings the bandits into the game), and that feeds back again into changes of status, etc. etc.

You're basically talking about making up a new game. Could be cool.
 

Thanks for the responses, guys. I don't have time to answer everything right now, so I'll pick one:

The main issues I see:
1. No learning curve: while it's fine to start at high (or even moderate) level with an experienced group, a newbie group is going to have issues. Even starting at level 2 is adding an entire new option and suite of rules to the game (ie - utility powers, magic items etc)

It's not really intended for new players, although it could run quite smoothly if the campaign was set at a low level. I don't see utility powers or magic items being much of a hindrance anyway. They use the same basic mechanical framework as everything else.


2. Stagnation: while it's true that story can keep much of the game alive, I feel that combat may start to feel repetitive. I'd suggest at least allowing retraining periodically.

This is something I'm considering, although it'd still be dependent on game world interaction. Swapping out powers and feats would require locating a tutor, or fighting alongside those who practice them.

As for combat becoming repetitive - remember it no longer grants experience. As I see it, fights are likely to occur only when something is at stake. Kicking down the door of the nearest dungeon is still viable, but when xp is absent and treasure thin on the ground it takes on a different complexion.


3. Lack of character growth: it's a pretty rare long-term story where the characters don't grow in any way. And while it may be that such growth is purely non-mechanical, it's not going to be the case for every character. Halting character growth and treasure acquisition bars many character archetypes from their goals.

Mechanical character growth is halted. Treasure acquisition slows to a trickle, but it's still possible to get rich via interacting with the game world. What's changed is that you no longer find loot lying around in level appropriate parcels on the battle field.

As far as goals go it's question of tailoring them to what's suggested by the campaign level. Of course you can aspire - this is heroic fiction, after all - but those wishing to radically exceed their mechanical reach need to think outside of advancement mechanics to get what they want.
 

Ahnirades: When I first read your post, I liked the idea for what it was, but couldn't help thinking that D&D probably wasn't the right system for it. At least, not with it's current mechanics.

Yeah - you need to make a subsystem that reflects "alliances, betrayals, military actions, trade and whatever else" on the character sheet and how those values change based on the actions of the PCs......

[sblock]If those things interact with action resolution, then you will have a nice cycle of play. Let's say you start out as a knight; you use your "knight" resources in encounters. Resolving those encounters changes your status (in terms of "alliances, betrayals, military actions, trade and whatever else"); this change in status alters the encounters you face, making them more interesting (opening up a trade route brings the bandits into the game), and that feeds back again into changes of status, etc. etc.[/sblock]

You're basically talking about making up a new game. Could be cool.

I agree wholeheartedly with this idea. I think eliminating the reward system would be very restrictive and could make the game boring, to be blunt. It really depends on your players personalities, but I can imagine they'll want to have something qualitative or quantitative with which to gauge their progress, else things feel stagnant.

Combat is a big part of D&D, and comes naturally with XP and magic rewards. Change the feel of combat by eliminating the reward of it and you're going to feel like you're playing a different game. This is fine. I can see how it would be very fun: the PCs only fight when they absolutely need to protect something, or there is the possibility of great gain. I'd say you should even make combat highly deadly for both sides. But different mechanics are naturally called into necessity. Eliminating the reward system for combat means something must replace it, such as the progression system Lost suggests.

Referring back to his idea, say a character starts as a page. Through hard work, and some ultimate valiant deed(s), he is knighted. This is a natural point at which the character would receive training, so maybe he gains some higher level powers and some stats. The knight then goes on to perform his duties (historically this would be pretty boring stuff... collecting duties for the landlord from his serfs, but we can spice it up with fantasy ideas.) Maybe he becomes the king's right hand, and alongside him in a fierce battle against Torog. (Good way to use stronger forces to accomplish things out of normal reach.) The king is killed, and not having an heir, the knight is made king. Another opportunity to retrain and gain new abilities, states. The game continues...
 
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I like this idea, id play it myself even without the combat. But remember that if you make combat optional and dangerous there will be one CN pc who goes "looks like those guys are winning, im swapping sides", whilst your paladin-alike continues to battle until death.It doesnt make much of a battle game in anyway, which is find but make sure everyone is on the same page.
 

Thanks for the responses, guys. I don't have time to answer everything right now, so I'll pick one:

It's not really intended for new players, although it could run quite smoothly if the campaign was set at a low level. I don't see utility powers or magic items being much of a hindrance anyway. They use the same basic mechanical framework as everything else.
I've got at least one new player (a former 3.5 player) who's chief problem with 4e is that they have to choose between two at-wills (plus all the generic ones like basic attack and bullrush) instead of just being able to smack someone, so adding new powers and categories of powers can potentially be enough to make a difference.
This is something I'm considering, although it'd still be dependent on game world interaction. Swapping out powers and feats would require locating a tutor, or fighting alongside those who practice them.
I did have a bit of a brainwave actually: what if all the STATS stayed constant, but the level of powers that you could retrain to was purely based on your tutor/the heroic event that allowed you to train them?
As for combat becoming repetitive - remember it no longer grants experience. As I see it, fights are likely to occur only when something is at stake. Kicking down the door of the nearest dungeon is still viable, but when xp is absent and treasure thin on the ground it takes on a different complexion.
In my experience, the only thing that makes combat in a roleplaying game less common is if the consequences of engaging in it are more severe.

4e isn't really geared to this at all - healing surges and encounter powers specifically exist to allow multiple combats per day, each at more-or-less full resources. The threat of death is only really present over a series of combats within a day.

If combat is rarified, then threatening the party in combat becomes a lot more difficult.

So - either you need to carefully structure the campaign such that combat is rarely an option at all OR you need to make it so that combat is much more risky.

And I mean do option - if the players CAN fight, then a lot of the time they will even if something else would be a superior solution, purely because it takes EVERYONE to choose another solution, but a rumble typically starts even if only one person chooses it.

To make combat more risky you could simply make it such that an extended rest (probably change the name) only occurs once per story arc, and ban any surgeless healing encounter powers.
Mechanical character growth is halted. Treasure acquisition slows to a trickle, but it's still possible to get rich via interacting with the game world. What's changed is that you no longer find loot lying around in level appropriate parcels on the battle field.
Cool. So if you want a +1 sword, you can still engage in a quest to get one. I really like that idea.
As far as goals go it's question of tailoring them to what's suggested by the campaign level. Of course you can aspire - this is heroic fiction, after all - but those wishing to radically exceed their mechanical reach need to think outside of advancement mechanics to get what they want.

The main problem is that 4e ties so many things to advancement: combat prowess, flexibility, skill prowess, toughness, leadership etc.

As an example: it's not actually possible for someone to become extremely knowledgable about botany under the 4e system without them levelling. They're either created knowledgable or not.

Is your goal to eliminate all progression, or simply combat progression and the combat->xp loop?
 

You may want to take a look at Fate (assuming the original game follows all the same basics as the Dresden version).

There is advancement, but it is slow and focused. To compensate, it essential allows a free "skill swap" at the end of each session. The system also encourages character development with it's mechanics.

You could place boundaries on skills and stunts/powers based on the "High Concept" (core character idea), and the example below would be a good example of the Concept changing throughout the character's life.


Ahnirades:
Referring back to his idea, say a character starts as a page. Through hard work, and some ultimate valiant deed(s), he is knighted. This is a natural point at which the character would receive training, so maybe he gains some higher level powers and some stats. The knight then goes on to perform his duties (historically this would be pretty boring stuff... collecting duties for the landlord from his serfs, but we can spice it up with fantasy ideas.) Maybe he becomes the king's right hand, and alongside him in a fierce battle against Torog. (Good way to use stronger forces to accomplish things out of normal reach.) The king is killed, and not having an heir, the knight is made king. Another opportunity to retrain and gain new abilities, states. The game continues...
 

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