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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6760244" data-attributes="member: 4937">Funny, as I was thinking in terms of very ancient and - if you are going to bounce off religion, rather antiquated - notions of how the world works.&nbsp; I can't think of much which is less describable as &quot;modern Western&quot;.&nbsp; Leaving aside the fact that most widely practiced extant Western religions aren't really dualistic the way Greek philosophy was, the concept of spirit hasn't been really important to the modern understanding how the world works since Newton's philosophy won out over Leibniz.&nbsp; I'm trying to imagine where you think you are going with that.The mindset I'm describing believes that when they observe a cloud move or a wind below, it is because the nature of the spirit in the cloud or the wind to want to blow.&nbsp; Why does the fire burn and why does the fire not go out?&nbsp; The fire burns because it is the nature of the spirit of the fire to want to burn, and the fire does not go out because it is content to continue to burn because it does not scorn the hearth.&nbsp; Likewise, a field is fertile because that field has the spirit of fertility which has the will to bring forth fruits.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you wish to continue to have the field be fertile, then you need to appease the fertility spirit so that it doesn't scorn you or depart from you.&nbsp;&nbsp; You do you have dysentery?&nbsp; It's not because of polluted water, which implies some knowledge of germ theory.&nbsp; Rather, you have dysentery because an evil spirit has entered you and must be appeased or expelled.&nbsp; Perhaps an enemy has set a curse on your.&nbsp; Or perhaps some guardian spirit is offended by your actions, and so has allowed the evil spirit to gain access to your life.&nbsp; If you want to set things right, you do so by making that spirit have good will toward you.&nbsp; Or as I put it in my campaign world when players start trying to use knowledge of real world science as if their characters had access to that knowledge, &quot;Why do things fall?&nbsp; It's because the spirits of the earth pull them down.&quot;In short, the animist viewpoint is that things happen, and things move, because they are alive.&nbsp; It projects a theory of mind into all action and sees that as the cause.&nbsp; Those flames aren't dancing around because of chaotic vortexes rising through a column of incandescent burning gases, but because they are happy.But even if we are talking about say Platoism, then that gets us no where better in terms of making spirit a peer of matter, since Platoism would say something like that we know that a fire is a fire regardless of what shape it is, because it is a manifestation of the pure ideal form of fire which we glimpse from a higher plane.&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Spirit&quot; isn't merely an element like the rest, but the thing that either makes everything go by giving it life or from when everything else gets its template and definition.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6760244, member: 4937"] Funny, as I was thinking in terms of very ancient and - if you are going to bounce off religion, rather antiquated - notions of how the world works. I can't think of much which is less describable as "modern Western". Leaving aside the fact that most widely practiced extant Western religions aren't really dualistic the way Greek philosophy was, the concept of spirit hasn't been really important to the modern understanding how the world works since Newton's philosophy won out over Leibniz. I'm trying to imagine where you think you are going with that. The mindset I'm describing believes that when they observe a cloud move or a wind below, it is because the nature of the spirit in the cloud or the wind to want to blow. Why does the fire burn and why does the fire not go out? The fire burns because it is the nature of the spirit of the fire to want to burn, and the fire does not go out because it is content to continue to burn because it does not scorn the hearth. Likewise, a field is fertile because that field has the spirit of fertility which has the will to bring forth fruits. If you wish to continue to have the field be fertile, then you need to appease the fertility spirit so that it doesn't scorn you or depart from you. You do you have dysentery? It's not because of polluted water, which implies some knowledge of germ theory. Rather, you have dysentery because an evil spirit has entered you and must be appeased or expelled. Perhaps an enemy has set a curse on your. Or perhaps some guardian spirit is offended by your actions, and so has allowed the evil spirit to gain access to your life. If you want to set things right, you do so by making that spirit have good will toward you. Or as I put it in my campaign world when players start trying to use knowledge of real world science as if their characters had access to that knowledge, "Why do things fall? It's because the spirits of the earth pull them down." In short, the animist viewpoint is that things happen, and things move, because they are alive. It projects a theory of mind into all action and sees that as the cause. Those flames aren't dancing around because of chaotic vortexes rising through a column of incandescent burning gases, but because they are happy. But even if we are talking about say Platoism, then that gets us no where better in terms of making spirit a peer of matter, since Platoism would say something like that we know that a fire is a fire regardless of what shape it is, because it is a manifestation of the pure ideal form of fire which we glimpse from a higher plane. "Spirit" isn't merely an element like the rest, but the thing that either makes everything go by giving it life or from when everything else gets its template and definition. [/QUOTE]

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