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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Forrester" data-source="post: 329775" data-attributes="member: 1279">A 4CTF Ogre . . .Playing with making an Ogre using 4CTF. This is either a test of the CR system, or of 4CTF -- I'm not sure which <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. I did this to test out what a Large Creature template might look like, and what problems might have to be overcome in making one. I'll start by noting that an Ogre is +5 ECL in the DMG, a +8 ECL creature in the Dragon magazine that tried to update ECLs, but is only a CR2 creature. It looks like the best way to make an Ogre is by creating a 6th level Hero:Ogry the Ogre: Hero6 (48 Hero Points)Let's start where they matchup just fine:+3 BAB (just like an Ogre)+2/+2/+2 saves (Close: Ogry would normally have +4/+1/+1)And now, the Superpowers.I'll give costs, then the abilities.15 (Heightened Strength x5)  6 (Heightened Con x2)  4 (Lowlight vision + Darkvision)  2 (Increased Reach)  2 (Mighty Lifting)  1 (Speed = 40' -- errata'd for all giants)10 (+5 Natural Armor)  2 (Super Toughness x2, bringing him to an average of 19hp before Con bonus)Total buy = 42. However, I must make two very important notes. Ogry has two feats, but an Ogre would only have one. (I'm not giving Ogry a feat for becoming a Hero1, for obvious reasons). Ogry has no hit to Dex (-2), Intelligence (-4), or Charisma (-4) like a regular Ogre would. Ogry has Low-light vision, but a regular Ogre does not. Because characters usually don't play Ogre wizards or sorcerers, I'll balance it this way:-3 Hero Points for the Dex hit-2 Hero Points for the Int hit-0 Hero Points for the Cha hit (Dump Stat!)-1 Hero Point to lose Low-light vision-2 Hero Points for getting rid of the extra featBringing the buy from 42 to 34. WOW!This means that supposedly, Ogry as a 6th level Hero is overpowered; at this point, he's just like an Ogre, except he's got 14 Hero Points to spare! This brings us to Part II of the modifications. Reach is too cheap: Price at 4 instead of 2. Increased Speed is too cheap: Price at 2 instead of 1. Ogry should only be able to spend 9 points in Natural Armor and in Heightened Strength. Instead, he's paid 15 and 10, respectively. Double all costs over what's normal. That's +6 for his strength boost and +1 for the armor boost. Total increase in cost: 10.New buy for Ogry: 44 Hero Points. Not bad, I think. There is one other notable difference -- a 6th level Hero is going to get more of a hp bonus from Con than a 4HD Ogre. So the Hero has that going for him as well.  I was going to do the MM Minotaur next, but maybe I'll leave that for someone else <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. There are a few things that are clear:1) We need a Superpower for BAB. I got lucky here, that a 6th level Hero has the same BAB as a standard ogre.2) A system for getting Hero Points back in essential buys for feats, hits to Int or Wisdom or Dex, is necessary. 3) A system that increases costs for Str and Con and Dex if the buys go over the "legal limit" is necessary. 4) The fact that Heroes get d4hp and extra HD, but Giants have d8 with fewer HD, needs to be accounted for somewhere.</blockquote>

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