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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 331299" data-attributes="member: 141">Ok.  I was trying to reverse-engineer the Fighter, and I found something interesting:This is how much it costs a 4th level fighter/16th level hero to emulate a 20th level fighter.  I'm assuming that +1 BAB costs 3 HP (hero points).  I'm starting off with a few levels of fighter so that maximum hp at first level, extra starting skills, the ability to specialize, etc., are all taken care of.+48 hp: 24 HP+8 BAB: 24 HP32 skill points: 16 HP+3 Fort save: 3 HP+8 feats: 16 HPThis includes everything but the "+ Intelligence Modifer" per level of skill points.  And how much is that going to be for a fighter?  The extra hp and BAB require the hero to "go over" a little the max number of ranks (should only be 23).  Let's double the cost for the overage.  25+25+16+3+16=85There is a total of 85 HP here, and 16 levels of hero will net you 128 HP.  That's 43 HP extra after emulating the fighter.  The only difference between the hero fighter and the regular fighter is "Intelligence Modifier" x 16 skill points.  I have difficulty believing that each "Intelligence Modifier is worth more than 2 HP.However... suppose that one's Constitution bonus didn't apply to a hero's hit dice?  After all, high intelligence doesn't give a hero any extra skill points- why should high constitution give any extra hit points?Then we could give quite reasonable costs to the value of the Intelligence modifer (say +1 per hit dice) and the Constitution modifier (+2 per hit dice), which would increase the cost of emulating the fighter to 133; a little more than the number of HP we have to play with.And that, I think, makes a lot more sense.So increase the cost of Ogry the Ogre by 8 HP; 4 of his hit dice get Con bonuses, and 2 don't.  Add 1 more HP to apply his intelligence modifier once (which actually hurts him). He gets 8 skill points, for which he pays 4HP  (This amount, less two for his poor intelligence, is divided equally between climb, listen and spot. The MM entry confused me until I realized that his Hide armor was penalizing his Climb skill.)This is another 13 HP which is more than we have.  Ogry needs another level of hero to pay for all this.  Luckily his saves and BAB don't change, and his new hp total (7d4=17.5) is very close to the hp of a real ogre (4d8=18).  He is still a little over the number of HP a 7th level hero has, but this is close enough.In other words, using the 4CTF rules (slightly modifed), we get the Ogre as an ECL of +7.[edit- there is an error in the above discussion, which I have not corrected: the Con bonus should cost only 1 HP per hit dice.  And the Hero should not get any save progression.  See further down the thread for the reasoning]</blockquote>

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