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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kennew142" data-source="post: 4125606" data-attributes="member: 18490">I am one of those who doesn't want mechanics for crafting or professions. We are apparently the majority, but that doesn't help when you want something to be included in the game and it isn't. There have been a few pretty good systems in these forums that can easily be house ruled into the 4e game. Since they are separate systems, they can be added without changing any of the RAW (they are extras, not replacements).I don't like crafting and profession rules for many reasons.1) I don't like characters getting better at mundane (non-adventuring) skills by virtue of killing monsters and taking their stuff.2) In 3e characters were forced to make a choice between taking adventuring skills and skills that reflect a background. All backgrounds used the skill system in some way, and all skills shared the same pool of skill ranks.3) It has been my experience that characters had more detailed backgrounds in earlier editions of D&D, before combat related abilities (tumble, spot, etc...) began competing with character background. In most 1e and 2e campaigns I ran or played in, characters had very detailed backgrounds that came into play often in RP situations. I had toyed with the idea (before the 4e announcement) of giving every character 4 ranks in the appropriate craft and/or profession skills to reflect their background, and then not allowing them to increase the ranks through adventure, but rather through training and time spent practicing the skills. I will likely do something similar in 4e, but won't call it skill points.4) I don't think an adventurer should be a mastercrafter. Becoming a skilled master requires years of hard work and discipline, not just practicing a few days or weeks between adventuring. Furthermore, how did the character spent the time and effort to become a grandmaster glass blower? Didn't all that weapon or spell training get in the way? Characters in my games often have a lot of downtime between adventures. Some of them like to idle the time away drinking, gambling and wenching. Others hold down real jobs. But none of the players has ever made the argument that they should be as good a crafter/professional as someone who spends all of their time doing the same job. One of my characters in 3e taught at Morgrave University, but he was actually one of those brilliant professors who had no pedagogical skills at all. We had many scenes with hapless students who had no choice but to seek help from Professor Maximus Quan, even when it was the last thing in the world they wanted to do. My upcoming 4e game will include one character who is a pastry chef. Because he was trained in the family business, he is a competent maker of fine pastries himself. The player understands that his older brother (less heroic in every way mechanically enumerated) will always be a better pastry chef than he is. That won't stop him from using his skills in RP situations (to chat up a cook, to disguise himself and get a job in someone's kitchens, to make a gift for someone special, etc....)I think most of us would agree that these sorts of backgrounds are important and desirable aspects of the characters. What we disagree on is the necessity of mechanics to model them. I fall firmly in the camp of those who believe that the mechanics can impede the RP, thwarting the very aspect they are intended to illuminate.</blockquote>

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