Creation Myths and Pantheons

Mercule

Adventurer
This is a topic for you DMs with homebrew worlds (and those players playing there). It's kind of a two-part thought.

First, how many of you have actually come up with full-fledged creation myths (realities?) for your world? Are the popular legends true? Are there conflicting stories depending on who you talk to? Are any of the myths wholly right (or wholly wrong)?

Second, has anyone worked with geographically, culturally, or otherwise completely separate pantheons in the same world? Do you use multiple gods having domain over the same attribute (the sea, death, etc.) or are they simply different names and perceptions of the same entity? If they are different, how can two beings have dominance over a single aspect of nature? If they are the same, why might one culture view the deity as evil and another good (eg. if Pluto and Anubis are the same, why is one a jailer and the other a guard)?

Please feel free to brag it up. I'm finally going back over my world and trying to work out some of these esoteric details, and I'd love to hear what others have done.

edit: Der.... _Pluto_ is a deity, Plato is a philosopher.
 
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I've done both = although admittedly much inspired by real world Myth

For Instance
In the beginning was the Void and the Void was without form.
The Infinite Void sort purpose and from this purpose there came desire and from desire came thought and the thought became the Word and thus was born the First Word 'AO'

AO moved about the Void and learnt of its expanse and from his Motion was born HA which moved like the Wind and also PU which is beneath his feet..it then goes on to the birth of the Greater Gods, the Creation of the World the War of the Gods, the First Cataclysm and the Creation of Mortal life etc etc.

As to your next question

All gods are manifestations of the divine Word 'AO' so Anhar the Dravoi god of Desire is the dark aspect of Ludh the Cruithne god of Wisdom and Learning who is an aspect of Toraz the Pashar god of Knowledge all three are manifestations from the 'Thought' which arose from the Song of AO.
 

Mercule said:
This is a topic for you DMs with homebrew worlds (and those players playing there). It's kind of a two-part thought.

First, how many of you have actually come up with full-fledged creation myths (realities?) for your world? Are the popular legends true? Are there conflicting stories depending on who you talk to? Are any of the myths wholly right (or wholly wrong)?


I'm not sure what you mean by "full-fledged" but I've outlined the creation myths for several cultures. There are conflicting stories depending on the culture. As to who's right, who cares?

Second, has anyone worked with geographically, culturally, or otherwise completely separate pantheons in the same world? Do you use multiple gods having domain over the same attribute (the sea, death, etc.) or are they simply different names and perceptions of the same entity?

There are different gods for different cultures, but not very many have pantheons. Some would say that all gods are really just aspects of a single great god. Others would say that their god(s) is/are the true one(s), and that all others are false. Or all others are demons from hell. Others would say that all the gods are real and seperate. Others would say that all gods are real but those with similar portfolios are each the same god with different names and aspects. It's impossible to prove who's right, because anyone who believes in something strongly enough can gain magical power through their force of belief. So a god might be real, or the priest might simply believe that he is real strongly enough to cast spells.

If they are different, how can two beings have dominance over a single aspect of nature? If they are the same, why might one culture view the deity as evil and another good (eg. if Plato and Anubis are the same, why is one a jailer and the other a guard)?

The people who believe in each of those possibilities have many ways to explain it. As to what's true, who knows? Not me.
 
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Mercule---

One of my outlined (but unfinished) creation myths is on my web site, at
http://www.rpg.net/ehp/imrryr/gh_abyss_creation.html
I use my own world in conjunction with Greyhawk, therefore there's lots of overlap between the two.

The details in the myth are rounded out more fully, in part, among my "Excerpts from the Demonomicon of Iggwilv" articles on Canonfire!, which you can check out at http://www.canonfire.com/html/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&uname=grodog
(in particular, I would point you to the entries on Abyssal Genealogy, Baphomet, and Fraz'Urb-luu).
 

Well, as to the question of contradictory creation myths, I must recommend Greg Stafford's Glorantha. He developed about seven pantheons with similar yet mutually exclusive creation myths.

I don't know if he has the necessary data up on www.glorantha.com.

My own campaign has competing and contradictory creation myths and theologies. Of course, the existence of competing myths arises out of competing pantheons as opposed to competing gods.

However, I'm of the view that creation myths are over-valued in modern society as we equate the role of religion with than of cosmology when in fact religion has for most of its history been more generally about the system of relationships between people in society. Therefore, most of my campaigns have plenty of myths but rarely do I have to create creation myths; they simply aren't all that necessary.
 

Second, has anyone worked with geographically, culturally, or otherwise completely separate pantheons in the same world? Do you use multiple gods having domain over the same attribute (the sea, death, etc.) or are they simply different names and perceptions of the same entity? If they are different, how can two beings have dominance over a single aspect of nature? If they are the same, why might one culture view the deity as evil and another good (eg. if Pluto and Anubis are the same, why is one a jailer and the other a guard)?

Thanks for asking this question. I've been trying to reconcile this in my world for quite awhile now. I've got three main monotheistic religions, but the idea is that all three are actually worshipping the same "god".

So, how do I deal with something like a Paladin who wants to "smite evil" against an enemy of his religion? They're theoretically worshipping the same god (but they don't know that, of course).

Not sure if that's exactly what you're asking, but I'll be very anxious to see what people can suggest about that.

It's impossible to prove who's right, because anyone who believes in something strongly enough can gain magical power through their force of belief. So a god might be real, or the priest might simply believe that he is real strongly enough to cast spells.

That's pretty much how I think I'm going to deal with it. But it still doesn't answer my question about the "smite evil" thing.

And, what about the forces of darkness? Where would their divine power come from (in a world with only one "god")?
 

The gods of my homebrew world have a habit of living on the world. So, the creation myth is rather accurate, as the populace knows it.

Of course, each race puts their own twist on it. The elves were created first of the humanoid races, purely by accident. But of course, the elves see themselves as the chosen children of the gods, while other races disagree. :)

Most of the other stories (events after creation) are hotly debated. Some are accurate, others are pure legend. But yes, I've written out the creation myth for my world and a few of the other stories as well.
 

Re: Re: Creation Myths and Pantheons

Tiefling said:
It's impossible to prove who's right, because anyone who believes in something strongly enough can gain magical power through their force of belief. So a god might be real, or the priest might simply believe that he is real strongly enough to cast spells.

You could even say that their beliefs have sufficient power to create their own object, or to invest equivalent power in something already existing. So, even if there is only one god in your campaign world, there could still be powers of darkness; they would simply come from the darkness inherent in people, in their inventions and their imaginations.
 

First, how many of you have actually come up with full-fledged creation myths (realities?) for your world? Are the popular legends true? Are there conflicting stories depending on who you talk to? Are any of the myths wholly right (or wholly wrong)?

Second, has anyone worked with geographically, culturally, or otherwise completely separate pantheons in the same world? Do you use multiple gods having domain over the same attribute (the sea, death, etc.) or are they simply different names and perceptions of the same entity? If they are different, how can two beings have dominance over a single aspect of nature? If they are the same, why might one culture view the deity as evil and another good (eg. if Pluto and Anubis are the same, why is one a jailer and the other a guard)?
This will be LONG.

I think Kipling said something like "There are ten and a thousand ways of constructing tribal lays (offerings to God), and each and every one of them is right, and each and every one is wrong."

Basically, I feel all the disparate myths from the different cultures ought to say something valid about the cosmology, about the outer planes, deities, outsiders, etc. But being products of unique cultures, they will also have quirks, errors of interpretation, changes in emphasis, etc.

The Gods and Outsiders in my campaign aren't exacly self-consistent and clear. Hell, I won't even give them consistent stats and appearances. Also, I won't restrict clerics to their God's alignment. As long as they're part of the hierarchy and are discreet, they have power. And the alignment spells are patron-deity specific, not alignment based. So a "Smite Evil" really means "Smite the Card-Carrying Followers of Gods Who Dwell in the Lower Planes". So the godless will actually have an advantage. They're immune to that stuff. (They may as well be True Neutral.) But then, divine spells will probably have a diminished effect on them as well.

So mortals just have a ball telling these stories and bonking each other over the head regarding who was right.

Anyway, on to the stories.

Here are two. They rise from two cultures in my still gestating homebrew: from Malan - a jumble of city-states dotting a tropical savannah, and from the lands of the Basileian League - a once-mighty empire in its twilight years.

The first is a tale told by the black merchants of Malan.

In the beginning, Our Great Grandmother Nura (an Elder Goddess of Creation and Transformation, usually depicted as a titanic white frog) swam in Chaos, immense in her power and fecundity. From her belly came worlds and wonders which began to swirl and form.

Firstborn were the elder gods. The Serpent Sinn (Greater Goddess of Treachery, Lies, and Darkness,usually depicted as a dark serpent or an unimaginably beautiful woman), Valiant Raam (Greater God of Justice, Truth, and Charity, usually depicted as an warrior armed and armored in platinum)and Gilaan the Wise (Greater God of Knowledge, Time, and Magic, usually depicted as an old man in ruby robes) were but the first of a vast and bewildering host of powers and spirits. Soon, worlds were spawned where all these gods and monsters could teem and thrive.

It was an age of wonders and of miracles no mortal mind could even conceive. But jealous and proud, Sinn gazed at all her mother had made, and her botomless belly growled with hunger. The Serpent began to hunt.

All manners of thing fell before her might. Her terrible jaws mangled even gods and even worlds, and all fell down her gullet, unmourned and unremembered, to feed her insatiable hunger. Even the Great Grandmother finally fell before her child’s hunger.
Finally, as Sinn fed upon Nura’s vast and bloated carcass, she was sated. And filled, Sinn herself began to feel the pain of childbirth. She begat Mardalaan (The Firm, God of Law and Vengeance) and Tzom (The Undying Prince of Corruption and Disease), and Zoriina (The Bitch-queen of Storms and Destruction), and Zar (The Impetuous, God of Fire), and Sorayya (Goddess of Mercy and Healing) and many many more. In the end, Sinn’s children filled the cosmos, for a mere handful of Sinn’s siblings escaped her maw. We know but a few of these elder gods. The twins Yyam (The Inevitable, God of Death and Artifice) and Kilena (Queen of Knives, Dread Lady of Pain and Journeying), the sagacious Nanyana (The World Tree, God of Nature and Growth), cruel Sargon (The Horned Lord of Tyranny and War), cunning Ananda (The Spider, Spinner of all Tales). Led by Raam and Gilaan, they found refuge in the vast bulk of their mother’s corpse.

Then, both sated and exhausted, Sinn slumbered.
The elder gods gathered their forces and their courage and watched the new generation of gods grow in power and wisdom. The elder gods’ trembled in fear, their thirst for vengeance seethed, and yet their wonderment also grew. And they saw that few of Sinn’s children took after their mother. Many were kind and beautiful, others mighty and honorable. Yyam and Kilena and Sargon insisted on revenge. Ananda and Raam and Nanyana sought justice. Gilaan forged a compromise, and their plan went into action.

The elders appeared before the young gods, and began to convince them to rebel against their mother. Most were merely amused. Several found the cause of the elders worthy. Others feared Sinn would wake hungry. They argued and bickered among themselves. But none but Mardalaan would join the elders fight against mighty Sinn. Angered, Sargon vented his rage on the young gods, who, of course, began to strike back.
The noise of divine conflict woke Sinn. And she was hungry. And very angry at the elder gods who had escaped her hunger and at her children who had broken her slumber. She struck and fed. Again and again. Once more, gods slid down her gullet, every trace of their ever having existed wiped out from all memory. All gods fled.

But mighty Mardalaan, Sinn’s firstborn, saw that while his mother hungered, none would be safe. So he stood his ground and wrestled with the serpent, despite the hopelessness of such a battle. Awed by his courage, some gods began to return and struck at Sinn.

And their combined might laid her low. Yyam prepared to take her life, but wise Gilaan and valiant Raam and merciful Sorayya intervened. She was, after all, sister and mother to them all.
So Mardallan grasped vanquished Sinn, Kilena split her open, throat to gullet, and Gilaan fed on her power. Sinn herself was spared, and a new body with new power sprang from her spilled blood. She cast herself into the darkness and vowed to keep her peace. Some of her still-loyal children followed.

Sargon was very angry at their having spared Sinn, and left the presence of the gods. Some of Sinn’s children followed him.
Gilaan, who had taken the bulk of Sinn’s power decided to breathe new life into Nura’s carcass, then proceeded to make the world out of fallen Sinn’s body.

Having been dead and fed upon, Nura is nowhere near as mighty as she once was, and can thus no longer birth worlds nor gods. Some of her sanity has fled her as well.

Sinn actually found release from her hunger liberating, and is grudgingly grateful. She, remembers her immense power, however, and plots to reclaim at least some of her former grandeur. Given her megalomanic and utterly selfish nature, however, this seems unlikely.


Here is another tale, told by the Madri, the Basileian priestesses of Zora, Queen of the Sky.

A thousand upon a thousand thousand ages past and even more, nothing but Khaos, terrible and mighty, roared and filled the great depth and breadth and width and height of all. Elder gods, celestials, and fiends are said to have teemed amidst Khaos, and it is said they are with us still, waiting, waiting to strike. But it is not of these alien beasts we now speak.

Khaos, being the fickle and capricious thing it was, is, and ever will be, began to coalesce and form into 5 vast and harsh realms. Into fire, into air, into water, into earth, and into a strange and inscrutable 5th realm. A 5th element, of life, of spirit, of death, of time, of truth, of meaning, of all the other things which transcend, rule, and devour the other four.

From the four basic elements of the cosmos arose nurturing Gia, whom we call Mother Earth, but who is born of fire, of air, and of water as well.

From the quintessential fifth arose proud and mighty Kron, whom we call Father Time, but who is also the giver of life, dealer of death, bearer of truth, and teller of lies.

Kron and Gia, the Father and Mother of all are Elder among those we call Titans.

Kron took Gia as his wife and she took him into herself. The mother of the four elements, impregnated by the father of the fifth, grew huge with child. And when time had come, her scream from the pain of birth filled the universe for eons. Her first born were vast and awesome. Some were worlds unto themselves, others, beasts mighty and terrifying, still others entities of great beauty and power. We call these children Titans, though none but the very least among them live to this day.

Exhausted by Creation, Gia slept, jealous Kron watched over her, and the age of Titans began. It was a proud and magical age. Titans of all sorts and power created and destroyed all manners of thing both living and unliving, loved and warred among their mighty brothers and sisters, and gave birth to more giants and more monsters. They ruled in the universe--the four realms and the fifth, and the worlds born of Gia--for an immeasurable age.

Still Gia slept. And Kron slowly grew lonely. And desperate. And mad. In a fit of passionate rage, he forced himself upon Gia’s vulnerable, resting form, and the violence of the rape ripped through Gia’s womb, and waked her from her slumber. Pregnant, but ruined, Gia lashed out at her husband, emasculated him, and fled into primeval Khaos. From Kron’s spilled blood rose countless spirits, both malevolent and benevolent.

Castrated and impotent after Gia’s attack, Kron grew even more insane and even more wrathful. He began to hunt Gia, and would vent his rage on all who stood in his way, be they Titans or any of their progeny. Eventually, his children learned to join the hunt or be hunted themselves. And they separated into two camps. Hunters and hunted.

Meanwhile, Gia, joined by several of her hunted children, hid and healed and gave birth to her youngest children. Begotten of violence, born of a shattered womb, Gia’s last born were a strange and broken breed of wild passion, of insane devotion, of unparalleled cruelty, and unprecedented kindness. Despite being much smaller and markedly weaker than Titans, their dreams, desires, hopes, fears, and imaginations were immeasurably and impossibly immense. They were the last born and most wonderful and most terrible of Gia’s brood. They were Gods.

Geron (The Old, God of Death, the Dead, Wealth, and Power) was first of the Gods, followed by Zora (Queen of the Sky, Goddess of the Hearth), by Erin (Goddess of Pain and Magic), by the twins Rao and Ora (God and Goddess of the Sun and the Moons), by Erdan of the wilds (God of Forests, Lord of the Hunt), by the serpent-lady Phydia (Goddess of Serpents, Secrets, and Fertility), and then by valiant Zar (the Thunderer, God of Storms and Lord of Battle). The birth of the last of Gia’s last born was so momentous a mighty thunderclap roared across the universe as he emerged from their womb.

Their location revealed by the Thunderer’s birth, Mother Gia and her latest brood could no longer hide. Kron and his hunters found them, and battle began in earnest. While not possessed of Titanic might, the Gods were cunning and ardent. They were able to outwit and even vanquish the titans using trickery, subterfuge, recklessness, valor, faith, and passion. Eventually, even Titans fell, and in their falling, gave the gods their might.

There are countless tales of the first War of Gods. Of how Geron outwitted the titans of wealth and rulership. Of how Phydia wrestled the Queen of Serpents into submission. Of how Rao and Ora stole fire and light.

But despite all the gods’ success and even with their newfound might, they could not stand against their father. They wounded him most bitterly, but when his time came to strike, he struck hard and fast, crippling many of his youngest.

And that is why Geron is lame. Why Rao is frail, and why Ora is mad. Why Phydia is blind. Why Erin has been cleaved into three.
In the end, gods lay fallen, save for Zora and Zar. Kron ignored them, and went straight to claim his wife. Brave Zora stood between her parents, despite having no power to stop her Father. Kron’s claws ripped through her body like scythes, and her blood fell upon the ground. But she succeeded. She was able to keep her mother safe. Then the Thunderer Zar struck a blow against his father. A blow so strong it could have shattered worlds. A blow so strong, mighty Kron finally fell. And while he lay, Gia imprisoned him in the Tarterian Depths of Carceri. From Zora’s spilled blood rose beautiful Dione.


I've several myths in progress as well. Tales told around the hearth-fires of the house-boats which sail the frozen seas of Nord. Stories spun by Fae bards to entertain the mendicant court of their Changeling Queen. Fables the kobolds whisper to their unborn children slumbering in the shell. And they all contradict each other. And they are all true.

The way I see it, 'outsider affairs' are so complex, mysterious, and manifold, that there are countless ways of codifying and experiencing them. Therefore, each creation tale, and each vier of the gods has some validity. It goes as far as this: the outer planes themselves churn and transform according to the tales and beliefs of mortals. I'll handle encounters with outsiders and the affairs of the outer planes in the same manner. Mortal culture shapes the incarnations and appearances of celestials and fiends.

Mariliths look that way partly because the people of Minda scare their children to bed with tales of six-armed snake-women who prowl the night, hunting those who stay out past their bedtime.

However, eventually, I also want to have some 'bedrock'. There are some 'facts' that can be gleaned by looking across mythologies. And I want the astute player to see (not too soon, hopefully) that all the cultures and all the stories talk about one vast family of gods and one titanic story of creation. I want something that makes people want to step back and say, "Whoa!', because myths are supposed to be mythic.

But my work's far from over. And the games are about to begin...
 
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i have a basic creation myth that has been interpretted several ways by different races and cultures..all the gods in my world are sjy objects, the 2 sister moons are primary, followed by the sun and then the various stars :)

Simus the uncaring- Simus was alone in the universe when he decided to tell a story. he created 2 daughters to help him, Fespa the academic and Kalin the artist. he set them before him as moons and drew forth a clay tablet to record history. on this tablet was but one creature. this creature said he was a ghost dragon, and was as old as the clay in the tablet. Simus commisioned this beast to fashion him an alphabet, with which to record his story.

Fespa and Kalin put all of their energies into the creation of a suitable setting for their fathers great tale and worked for 2000 years before they noticed that Simus had a son. Balcla, the sun, was free to hunt every day, pushing his hounds throughout the sky. one day when Simus was looking for the ghost dragon to check his progress Fespa and Kalin worked together and tricked Balcla into promising to run their errands, which they have kept him busy with to this day. every day Balcla sets forth north to south across the sky on waning days and south to north on waxing days. concerned that the baying of Balclas leash would attract the attentions of their father they cast the 9 dogs against the night sky where they circle forever in pursuit of Fift, the boar.

Centuries later the ghost dragon completed his alphabet and was released from duty by Simus. upon returning to his mountaintop to rest he discovered that his eggs, ungaurded for the whole time it had taken to create Simus' great alphabet, had turned to stone. the great dragon wept deeply over the death of his kind and when the sister moons saw his grief the presented him with a gift in grattitude. as his tears fell Fespa turned them into the great waters of the world and as his tears ran across his eggs Kalin turned the 12 eggs into 12 races, and sent them forth on the tablet to make a history for their father so that he would be kept busy recording his story and never interfere in the lives of those on the tablet again.

now, the dwarves believe they were the the 12 people from the eggs and everyone else came from them, yada yada. most cultures claim to have come from the first egg. curiously enuf, if my players keep it up till high enuf lvl they will learn the truth :)
 
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