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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8921537" data-attributes="member: 29398">Other than the 'mindless' piece, which isn't true in the least, my experience would largely beg to differ.Players are in general out for themselves to some extent at least, as they should be.  That said, that 'out for themselves' piece usually includes the maintenance of an enjoyable and playable game, which means their goal is not to break the game, just to win it...or at least to not lose it.  In this they are acting in a similar manner to players of any other type of game or sport.Provided the players are willing to abjure their right to push back against the rules, which pushback is IMO the duty of any player in any type of win-loss game (which RPGs are, when it gets down to hard tacks) where the rules are not crystal clear and hard-coded.  There's nothing to push back against in chess, for example; the rules are all hard-coded and there's no ambiguity: you can do it, or you can't.  But in basketball there's the built-in ambiguity of the referees' judgment and-or eyesight, which puts the players in a 'do it until they call a foul' position.  RPGs have even more ambiguity, 3e D&D and other rules-heavy systems notwithstanding, and IMO it's thus on the players to push the envelope until-unless the GM imposes limits.The GM doesn't have to ride herd on the players any more than does a hockey referee on the ice, but does have to enforce (or in some cases design and encode) the rules against the players' pushback.  That's what a referee does, and part of the GM's role is that of referee.</blockquote>

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