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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8922416" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Why the excluded middle? I mean, it is a game with participants, it doesn't 'belong' to any one of them. Dungeon World for instance needs a GM to make moves that put stress on the PCs and define certain particulars of scenes. Its like any dialog, it exists in the collective space of the participants.</p><p></p><p>Well, some games do have something like 'plot points', though PbtA-based games don't do that. They simply describe the agenda of the GM, the techniques they will use, and generally supply some genre-appropriate 'moves' (though basically they all come down to 'introduce some sort of stress/adversity into the situation'). Still, in Dungeon World the GM and players FIRST decide, at the start of the game, what sort of basic parameters it has, like the sort of major conflict, how the characters relate to each other and the world around them, and generally create a 'steading' (base of operations) as well as some ongoing immediate plot. After that the GM can go back and invent some more structured threats (fronts) and partially flesh out some things (make maps with holes in them). The GM is supposed to ask a lot of questions and use the answers the players give in order to do this.</p><p></p><p>From there, the GM sets scenes based on the player's avowed goals, PC relationships, genre conventions, and some of his own ideas. If the dwarf fighter states that he has sworn to recover his family's heirloom magical axe from the depths of the Lost Mines of Mugdush, then you can bet those mines are around someplace, and filled with nasty stuff that will make him want to think twice about it! And in DW there are certain moves that put some constraints on what the GM can say next, like Discern Realities requires the DM to answer questions in a certain way, assuming the player rolls above a 6.</p><p></p><p>Sure, I don't think rules ever really trump fun, but I also will stick with a principled use of a game's process of play, because that IS the defining nature of that game. We can alter or set aside certain outcomes if everyone really wants, perhaps, etc. but when the player rolling for the initial position at the start of a score in BitD gets a 1, we're going to start them out in a real tight spot! They can figure out how to deal with 'Desperate', the game has plenty of ways, and its those situations which give it part of its character. </p><p></p><p>And, to be clear, I think the same is true of classic trad D&D. If I decide to run a 1e game, I'm going to run it how it runs. I might not pedantically stick to the exact text of a certain spell if it would make sense for it to work differently in a given situation, and I'd be happy if players try to exploit that, its how the game is supposed to work. I just played enough of it and moved on, myself.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8922416, member: 82106"] Why the excluded middle? I mean, it is a game with participants, it doesn't 'belong' to any one of them. Dungeon World for instance needs a GM to make moves that put stress on the PCs and define certain particulars of scenes. Its like any dialog, it exists in the collective space of the participants. Well, some games do have something like 'plot points', though PbtA-based games don't do that. They simply describe the agenda of the GM, the techniques they will use, and generally supply some genre-appropriate 'moves' (though basically they all come down to 'introduce some sort of stress/adversity into the situation'). Still, in Dungeon World the GM and players FIRST decide, at the start of the game, what sort of basic parameters it has, like the sort of major conflict, how the characters relate to each other and the world around them, and generally create a 'steading' (base of operations) as well as some ongoing immediate plot. After that the GM can go back and invent some more structured threats (fronts) and partially flesh out some things (make maps with holes in them). The GM is supposed to ask a lot of questions and use the answers the players give in order to do this. From there, the GM sets scenes based on the player's avowed goals, PC relationships, genre conventions, and some of his own ideas. If the dwarf fighter states that he has sworn to recover his family's heirloom magical axe from the depths of the Lost Mines of Mugdush, then you can bet those mines are around someplace, and filled with nasty stuff that will make him want to think twice about it! And in DW there are certain moves that put some constraints on what the GM can say next, like Discern Realities requires the DM to answer questions in a certain way, assuming the player rolls above a 6. Sure, I don't think rules ever really trump fun, but I also will stick with a principled use of a game's process of play, because that IS the defining nature of that game. We can alter or set aside certain outcomes if everyone really wants, perhaps, etc. but when the player rolling for the initial position at the start of a score in BitD gets a 1, we're going to start them out in a real tight spot! They can figure out how to deal with 'Desperate', the game has plenty of ways, and its those situations which give it part of its character. And, to be clear, I think the same is true of classic trad D&D. If I decide to run a 1e game, I'm going to run it how it runs. I might not pedantically stick to the exact text of a certain spell if it would make sense for it to work differently in a given situation, and I'd be happy if players try to exploit that, its how the game is supposed to work. I just played enough of it and moved on, myself. [/QUOTE]
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