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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8922717" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>One of the fundamental observations of trying to design GMless games is (and I can't remember who I'm quoting) that it's generally a bad idea to have the same player responsible for both getting a character into trouble and of getting them out of it. As for player agency there's a stunning amount of difference between slapping a player's control of their character out of their hands during play so the DM is puppeting their character and doing it out of scene where it might jar slightly but at the point it can most be taken.</p><p></p><p>Second there's a bright line in D&D. The DM completely controls <em>literally the entire world other than the PCs.</em> The only thing the players control is their characters. For a DM, not content with controlling the entire world other than the PCs to reach across the line and snatch the only thing </p><p>the player actually has control of, therefore leaving the player with literally nothing is ridiculously unfair.</p><p></p><p>By contrast the line in MHRP is much blurrier. The players don't have as much control over the gameworld as Watchtower but they've a non-trivial amount; because MHRP doesn't have entitled DMs who are precious about their stuff and their exclusive control the players are also much more likely to share. And with certain characters it's entirely reasonable for them to be in a scene even if they aren't actually in a scene. (I've done this with Tony Stark. I mean yeah, sure, he was captured and wasn't actually there in person when the other characters were attacked. But he'd made <em>preparations </em>against other plans that were revealed as the scene unfolded). But even if the line is blurrier scene framing is part of the Watcher's control so it's both expected they use it as part of what people signed up for in a way it isn't part of D&D</p><p></p><p>Third there's the way death is on the line in D&D - and there's really no other long term failure state. And the XP track ticks upwards. Which locks the players into almost having to succeed. None of this is true for MHRP (I can't even remember if you <em>can</em> kill a character RAW). </p><p></p><p>Fourth there's how equipment-dependent most D&D PCs, especially the "classic" classes (i.e. not sorcerer, warlock, or monk) are. It's not so bad in 5e - but take an AD&D or 3.5 fighter's equipment away and force them to fight wearing just a loincloth and they are stuffed. And take a wizard's spellbook away and they don't even have the hit point buffer. Meanwhile the Hulk fights in just a ripped pair of purple shorts, Thor isn't the God of Hammers, and even Tony Stark is more than just his armour. And a captured Black Widow is probably exactly where she wants to be.</p><p></p><p>Fifth there are genre expectations. A comic book starting in media res? It's not quite as common as a heist appearing to go wrong but there's hidden information, but close. Meanwhile I think <em>one</em> Conan adventure starts in a dungeon. It exists - but is much less of a thing. And player skill and detailed preparation are much more of a thing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8922717, member: 87792"] One of the fundamental observations of trying to design GMless games is (and I can't remember who I'm quoting) that it's generally a bad idea to have the same player responsible for both getting a character into trouble and of getting them out of it. As for player agency there's a stunning amount of difference between slapping a player's control of their character out of their hands during play so the DM is puppeting their character and doing it out of scene where it might jar slightly but at the point it can most be taken. Second there's a bright line in D&D. The DM completely controls [I]literally the entire world other than the PCs.[/I] The only thing the players control is their characters. For a DM, not content with controlling the entire world other than the PCs to reach across the line and snatch the only thing the player actually has control of, therefore leaving the player with literally nothing is ridiculously unfair. By contrast the line in MHRP is much blurrier. The players don't have as much control over the gameworld as Watchtower but they've a non-trivial amount; because MHRP doesn't have entitled DMs who are precious about their stuff and their exclusive control the players are also much more likely to share. And with certain characters it's entirely reasonable for them to be in a scene even if they aren't actually in a scene. (I've done this with Tony Stark. I mean yeah, sure, he was captured and wasn't actually there in person when the other characters were attacked. But he'd made [I]preparations [/I]against other plans that were revealed as the scene unfolded). But even if the line is blurrier scene framing is part of the Watcher's control so it's both expected they use it as part of what people signed up for in a way it isn't part of D&D Third there's the way death is on the line in D&D - and there's really no other long term failure state. And the XP track ticks upwards. Which locks the players into almost having to succeed. None of this is true for MHRP (I can't even remember if you [I]can[/I] kill a character RAW). Fourth there's how equipment-dependent most D&D PCs, especially the "classic" classes (i.e. not sorcerer, warlock, or monk) are. It's not so bad in 5e - but take an AD&D or 3.5 fighter's equipment away and force them to fight wearing just a loincloth and they are stuffed. And take a wizard's spellbook away and they don't even have the hit point buffer. Meanwhile the Hulk fights in just a ripped pair of purple shorts, Thor isn't the God of Hammers, and even Tony Stark is more than just his armour. And a captured Black Widow is probably exactly where she wants to be. Fifth there are genre expectations. A comic book starting in media res? It's not quite as common as a heist appearing to go wrong but there's hidden information, but close. Meanwhile I think [I]one[/I] Conan adventure starts in a dungeon. It exists - but is much less of a thing. And player skill and detailed preparation are much more of a thing. [/QUOTE]
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