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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8925039" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Which is fine if you're playing with non-stubborn people who are sometimes willing to concede arguments or positions.</p><p></p><p>I run with some rather stubborn people, and even the non-stubborn ones now and then dig in their heels on something. In a system like this, any time anything contentious came up we'd spend half the night arguing how to resolve it, then spend the other half of the night arguing over what that resolution would be.</p><p></p><p>That, and IME and IMO it's pure human nature to try and gain an edge. Even though the game is cooperative, it's still seen as a competition; much like on a sports team where you're all working toward the same goal there's still competition as to who's the best player on the team.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I would certainly hope so; as in any game where the rules are not hard-coded and-or a referee's judgment is involved, it's the duty of a player to push against those rules until and unless the rules or the referee push back. That right there makes the second claim above true.</p><p></p><p>If the isn't any pushback then yes, the first claim above also becomes true.</p><p></p><p></p><p>None of those negative descriptors need apply.</p><p></p><p>Most players are just doing their job as players of a game, that job being to access the "win condition" by the most efficient means available; and accessing that 'most efficient means' often requires pushing the envelope of the rules if not outright breaking it. If you think doing that makes players abusive, coercive, and all the rest then I think I got some bad news for ya.</p><p></p><p>It's on the GM-as-referee, of course, to push back against this.</p><p></p><p>Agreed. So why call them abusive etc. just for being players and doing what players of a game should do?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8925039, member: 29398"] Which is fine if you're playing with non-stubborn people who are sometimes willing to concede arguments or positions. I run with some rather stubborn people, and even the non-stubborn ones now and then dig in their heels on something. In a system like this, any time anything contentious came up we'd spend half the night arguing how to resolve it, then spend the other half of the night arguing over what that resolution would be. That, and IME and IMO it's pure human nature to try and gain an edge. Even though the game is cooperative, it's still seen as a competition; much like on a sports team where you're all working toward the same goal there's still competition as to who's the best player on the team. I would certainly hope so; as in any game where the rules are not hard-coded and-or a referee's judgment is involved, it's the duty of a player to push against those rules until and unless the rules or the referee push back. That right there makes the second claim above true. If the isn't any pushback then yes, the first claim above also becomes true. None of those negative descriptors need apply. Most players are just doing their job as players of a game, that job being to access the "win condition" by the most efficient means available; and accessing that 'most efficient means' often requires pushing the envelope of the rules if not outright breaking it. If you think doing that makes players abusive, coercive, and all the rest then I think I got some bad news for ya. It's on the GM-as-referee, of course, to push back against this. Agreed. So why call them abusive etc. just for being players and doing what players of a game should do? [/QUOTE]
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